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Post by Angela on Jun 28, 2009 6:12:34 GMT -5
When Charlie took his whole family to Winston-Salem to have a professional photo made of them it was a once in a life time sort of thing. Fannie was still good for another 2 or 3 children. But Charlie decided to have the professional family photo made when the current addition (Marylou) was a few months old. Since Fannie was still in her child bearing years, (she was 37) why not wait? This tells me that Charlie did not expect for there to be any more children in his family. Why would he think that if he didn't know that for sure? The only way he could have known there would be no more children was because he planned to kill them when he did. His timing of the family photo screams premeditation to me.
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Post by debbie on Jun 28, 2009 6:43:35 GMT -5
I didn't even think of that Maria, but you're right. That is definitely another clue that Charlie left behind. I wonder if Fannie ever wondered why he wanted to have that photo made when there could have been future children.
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Post by Angela on Jun 28, 2009 9:26:48 GMT -5
At the time of the murders Charlie had 2 children, Arthur and Marie who were of the age to leave the family home. Marie was planning on marrying Charlie Wade Hampton real soon and when she did she of course would leave home and make her home with Charlie Wade which, when she did, would be one less farm hand for Charlie. Arthur was going steady with Annie Mae McGee and his leaving home would make 2 less farm hands. Having more children would be necessary to keep the farm going. Therfore I don't think Charlie Lawson was through doing what it takes for his wife to produce more children for him. Why have a family photo taken professionally if the family was not complete. Unless of course you were planning to snuff out your whole family thereby knowing the photo left behind would show your entire family. The Depression was on so if he had not planned on killing his family but knew instead there would be more children later, why waste his money having a portrait professionally taken of his family in 1929 because with the Depression on there was no chance he could afford to take everyone in the family plus 2 more and buy them all another new set of clothes and have another photo taken of all the same ones as before but with 2 more children in it. It isn't at all likely he could afford to do all of that twice. If he didn't have a second one done then the only professional portrait of the family would be incomplete had he done the one he did in 1929. He HAD to know is family would not grow due to the fact that he KNEW he was going to kill them.
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Post by angel71242 on Jun 29, 2009 8:16:45 GMT -5
Like Vickie said - I never thought of it that way either! But that makes a lot of sense Maria! Good thinking!
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Post by Brian on Jun 29, 2009 11:45:44 GMT -5
We usually assume that Charlie was single minded (those who think Charlie did it) and that everything he did was all planned at some time in advance. I think perhaps he was not singularly intent on murdering his family. I think it very likely that he had doubts and changed his mind back and forth. Perhaps he had been fighting with himself as his mind went back and forth between sanity and insanity.
I am suggesting that the portrait was taken during one his periods of coherent thought. Perhaps he was thinking the portrait would reinforce family ties/bonds and help keep the family together. Maybe he even felt bad for his evil thoughts, and even though the family didn't know he had thought about murdering them, the trip to Winston-Salem to buy clothes and take a portrait could have been his attempt to make up to them, or to try to be a unified family again.
But in the end it didn't work. Something likely happened on Christmas Day and his snapped, his mind reverting to his murderous thoughts and this time he carried them through.
I think this theory could explain any number of other seemingly inconsistancies. For instance, 2 partially written suicide notes.
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Post by Brian on Jun 29, 2009 15:17:37 GMT -5
I tend to think Charlie had enough farm hands. While it's probably true that 2 were about to leave home, he already had James and Raymond, not mention the other older girls. The new baby was only about 5 months old and you'd probably want a little gap between children, even if it isn't a boy, so the next pregnancy wouldn't start for at least a few months. While I'm sure younger children help out on the farm, I wouldn't think they'd begin to be really useful till maybe the age of 10. By the time the next baby was 10 James and Raymond would already be in their teens, and Charlie would be in his mid 50's. The farm, by them, would probably have been Arthur's responsiblility by then.
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Post by angel71242 on Jun 29, 2009 15:28:53 GMT -5
We usually assume that Charlie was single minded (those who think Charlie did it) and that everything he did was all planned at some time in advance. I think perhaps he was not singularly intent on murdering his family. I think it very likely that he had doubts and changed his mind back and forth. Perhaps he had been fighting with himself as his mind went back and forth between sanity and insanity. I am suggesting that the portrait was taken during one his periods of coherent thought. Perhaps he was thinking the portrait would reinforce family ties/bonds and help keep the family together. Maybe he even felt bad for his evil thoughts, and even though the family didn't know he had thought about murdering them, the trip to Winston-Salem to buy clothes and take a portrait could have been his attempt to make up to them, or to try to be a unified family again. Perhaps. I just don't see it that way. I feel like for a least a couple of weeks before the murders he knew what he was going to do. I feel like that's the only reason he got the portrait made - not to try to be a unified family again. I just can't see him thinking those thoughts you speak of - feeling bad about his evil thoughts, wanting to make up to his family, trying to be unified again. He was testing his guns daily in the nights leading up to the murders, the comment he made that he wouldn't mind dying if he could take his family with him...I don't think he snapped on Christmas Day - I think he had been planning it and events fell into step that day that made it possible for him to carry it out. I feel like the portrait was his way of preserving his family forever. As for the suicide notes, I imagine it would be quite hard to explain why you killed your family in a few words on a piece of paper. Course, I could be wrong - but it's the way I feel inside.
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Post by Brian on Jun 29, 2009 16:42:32 GMT -5
I agree with you in general. I do think he planned it, and thought about it for weeks before hand. But I don't think it's as simple as he just deciding he was going to do it. People and life usually aren't that simplistic. If he had totally cracked up weeks before he did it I think people would have noticed more odd things about him. He was still able to act normal enough so that no one thought anything until he actually did it. On Christmas morning he was outside with the gang shooting guns, and Arthur didn't suspect a thing and went off to the store leaving Charlie home alone with the family (and his guns).
So, I'm not saying he didn't plan it all along, I just don't necessarily think that everything he did was part of that plan. If you are crazy enough to want to kill your entire family, why would you care about a family portrait? A picture isn't going to do you any good after you're all dead. I just think he must have some moments of lucidity. Maybe the nights when he was worrying and wringing his hands about what he was going to do were sane moments, because the insane Charlie knew what he was going to do.
I am no expert, by any means, but I have learned that when it comes to people's intentions and actions things aren't usually all black and white. People do different things for different reasons. And of course, I could very well be wrong.
Also, my theory could be right in general, but wrong about the photo. Maybe the portrait was indeed a part of the murder plan all along, that cannot be ruled out.
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Post by Angela on Jun 30, 2009 3:33:45 GMT -5
If he had totally cracked up weeks before he did it I think people would have noticed more odd things about him. He was still able to act normal enough so that no one thought anything until he actually did it. BRIAN
A number of people DID notice more odd things about him Brian. 1. Pacing around, wringing his hands and crying "oh God, what am I going to do, what am I going to do? 2. Jumping up at all hours of the night checking his guns over and over. 3. disappearing for hours at a time until Arthur had to go in search of him at which time he would find his father in the bottom land walking around in circles mumbling to himself. 4. Offering popcorn to the children then pouring it on the ground instead of giving it to them the way he normally did. 5. Ignoring people who tried to talk to him. etc. etc. I could go on an on but even that is enough to convince even me that he was definitely not acting normal, nor any longer ABLE to.
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Post by debbie on Jun 30, 2009 5:41:07 GMT -5
I'm sure family members did notice Charlie acting odd. Marion came at one point to take him to the doctor, but no one wanted him to go.
I would imagine anyone contemplating a murder would leave tell-tell signs, but that no one would put together how devious it was until it was too late. Just like suicides. Victims of suicide "plan" it out by giving away things they love, they stop doing things they enjoy, lose weight, can't sleep. Family members may notice oddities, but certainly don't think they are capapble of murder or suicide until its too late.
I believe that Charlie had a window of opportunity that day and he seized it. He knew that people would be coming by that day and the bodies of his family would be found.
I do agree with you Brian that it wasn't "simple", a murderous plot never is.
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Post by angel71242 on Jun 30, 2009 8:31:02 GMT -5
If you are crazy enough to want to kill your entire family, why would you care about a family portrait? A picture isn't going to do you any good after you're all dead. If you are crazy enough to kill your entire family, why would you care about putting pillows under their battered heads?? The pillows certainly weren't doing them any good cuz they were dead. You really think he had that portrait made to try to "make up" to his family?? You certainly are allowed to your own opinion Brian but I feel soooooooooo strongly that he wanted that portrait BECAUSE he knew he was going to kill his family. He "cared" (in his mind only) enough to put pillows under their heads after he brutally murdered them - I believe he also wanted them to always be remembered. I just feel it's too weird of a situation that he would spend all that money, make that big trip into town, and have a portrait made just cuz he "felt bad" for thinking crazy thoughts. Charlie doesn't hit me as the type of guy who would do something "sweet" for his family because he felt bad for thinking crazy stuff. Sorry to go on and on - I just feel so strongly about this. Absolutely doesn't mean I'm right though as no one can ever truly know.
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Post by Brian on Jun 30, 2009 10:48:13 GMT -5
I didn't say it's what I really believed, it's just a possibility. No one's opinion can be right or wrong and we will probably never know most of the real facts about what happened and when.
The portrait was obviously directly related to the murders, whether it was meant to be a family memorial after he had killed them, or his weak, misguided attempt to keep his disintigrating family together. You misunderstood me, I didn't mean to imply he did anything to be sweet to his family. I said he may have felt bad, in a moment of sanity, for wanting to kill his family and that may be why he had the portrait taken, but he wouldn't have done it to be sweet to them, it would only have been to make himself feel better. The family never knew what he planned nor why he was having the picture taken. IF that happened it was for entirely selfish reasons.
I always had the feeling that the entire family was uncomfortable on that trip. They weren't used to buying clothes, certainly not entire outfits for the entire family all at once. And they don't look very relaxed in the portrait, and obvious none are smiling. I get the feeling they don't know why they are there, or why Charlie wants to do this, we don't usually do this kind of thing, what's going on. Charlie is the only one who appears relaxed and he even appears to be enjoying it to some degree.
Charlie was obviously insane, in one way or another, same people don't kill their families and themselves, for no apparent reason. I just think it may be a mistake to attribute everything he did leading up to the murders to a big overall plan. It's like in the movies when someone has multiple personalities, the evil personality will take over and try to do things he/she wants done, and when the normal personality comes back he realizes what is happening and tries to undo the evil plans. I don't think Charlie had multiple personalities, but I think it highly likely he had times of insanity and times of sanity (or near sanity). But it seems obvious when he was sane he was worried about something. There were reports that he'd wander around at night worrying and wringing his hands about what he was going to do. If he KNEW the answer was to murder his family, why worry? If he was planning the entire final few weeks of life to murder the family, he should have been more relaxed. He had a problem but he had the solution, there was nothing more to worry about except arranging things so he could carry through with the murders.
Angel, I respect your opinion and I'm not saying anything is right or wrong, especially not my theories. Thoughts occur to me sometimes and I try to think them through and post what I think MAY have happened. And I sometimes come up with things that haven't been thought of before (as far as I know) and I throw them out there for other's thought and possible discussion.
So don't be sorry about going on, this is a discussion forum. Everyone has different ideas about something. I'm not trying to make you believe what I'm saying, I'm just trying to present it such a way that is sounds plausible and and maybe have people say 'I never thought of that'.
I could be totally off base, and I probably am. But I should now be sorry for going on and on. Given the lack of comment I'm assuming no one else thinks there's any merit in this line of thinking. So I'm done. But thanks for listening.
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Post by angel71242 on Jun 30, 2009 10:56:39 GMT -5
'sall good
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Post by Brian on Jun 30, 2009 11:39:57 GMT -5
That's why the pay me the big $$ around here...to come up with alternate theories.
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Post by Angela on Jul 1, 2009 8:05:44 GMT -5
I'm sorry Brian, your theory just got to convoluted for me. I'm not the brightest light bulb in the pack. By the way, any chance of us getting our big bucks back on this one!!!!.
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