Post by Brian on Mar 18, 2014 1:20:56 GMT -5
09/06/07 at 08:22 AM
Maria
While going over some interviews Robert Carroll did a good while back when he was writing a book about the history of Stokes County, I saw where he quoted a Mrs. Watts as saying, and I quote, "The Lawson family killing was really a tragedy in my life. The eldest son survived, was away from home and it was thought his father sent him to Germanton on purpose." Unquote.
I find the words, "on purpose" interesting. She was saying that even back then the people in the community thought that way about it. If this is indeed true, and I for one have always thought that way about it as well, I can't help but wonder why. Did Charlie want to hurt Arthur in the worst way possible or did he want the Lawson line to continue it's gene pool or was Charlie concerned about Arthur's ability to stop him from killing everyone else? Or could he have planned to take out Arthur last, when he returned from the store and could no longer prevent him from killing the others?
Maria
09/06/07 at 08:46 AM
LuvMyDog
I think Charlie had full intentions on killing Arthur when he returned, but I think his plan was spoiled when he heard voices of visiting friends and family. I believe that's when he turned the gun on himself.
LuvMyDog
09/06/07 at 08:48 AM
sissy
In my opinion I think Arthur was left behind because Charlie knew Arthur could have stopped him. But I always thought if the people had not shown up and found the other bodies that Charlie would have killed Arthur too. I wonder if in later years if people threw up the fact that Arthur was the only survivor, maybe even thought he had
something to do with it?
sissy
09/06/07 at 09:07 AM
Angel71242
I agree with Sissy. I think Charlie sent him away because he was worried that Arthur would have stopped him. There's no way he could have killed all of them with Arthur there. And I agree too that he probably would have shot Arthur when he got back if he had had the chance.
Angel71242
09/06/07 at 09:08 AM
love2xstitch
I agree with Michelle. I think that sending Arthur and waiting for his return was part of Charlie's plan. Only his plan did not include visitors that day. I am curious as to what position the bodies were in when Elijah opened the door that day? I have read somewhere that it is believed Charlie was seen standing in front of the upstairs window.
Were the bodies positioned differently after Charlie's brother had left with his sons? That might help determine whether Charlie knew someone had found the bodies. If that is the case, there was simply not enough time to wait for Arthur's return.
love2xstitch
09/06/07 at 09:14 AM
Maria
Elijah's son Claude Lawson said that when he opened the front door it would only open a little bit because the door hit up against Fannie's feet So we at least know where Fannie's body was positioned. There were two pillows side by side at the foot of the dresser. I assume that James and Raymond's bodies were lying there with their little heads on the pillows. Marie was lying in front of the fireplace with her head closest to the fireplace. It's her blood you see on the floor in the photo. Marylou was in her crib.
Maria
09/06/07 at 09:16 AM
Angel71242
I'm sure he knew he had been found out because he ran and hid in the woods
Angel71242
09/06/07 at 09:19 AM
sissy
I agree with Angel. And the fact that it took him four hours to kill himself tells me he was waiting around for Arthur to come back.
sissy
09/06/07 at 10:06 AM
Maria
Either that or it was harder killing himself than killing someone else. He may have gotten scared when he thought about dying himself. Especially via a shotgun blast. Even though you may want to die it can still be scary. The instinct for self preservation is the strongest instinct man or animal has.
Maria
09/06/07 at 11:09 AM
LuvMyDog
I have a hard time believing that Charlie cared much about anything at that point, let alone himself, I just think his plan was spoiled because Arthur didn't come home as quickly as he had anticipated. I really believe he wanted to kill himself right away but he wanted to finish Arthur off first.
LuvMyDog
09/06/07 at 11:18 AM
Maria
Personally I agree with you Michelle. I was just throwing out all the reasons that could possibly have caused him to wait so long. My choice of theory is like yours, he was waiting on Arthur to get back from the store.
Maria
09/06/07 at 09:53 PM
LuvMyDog
I was just wondering, and excuse me if I am overstepping my boundaries here, but! wonder if anyone has talked to Arthur's children about what happened that day? I know it had to be mentioned to his wife at times and perhaps his children have some valuable info on that day? It just seems to me that somebody knows more than they want to say?
LuvMyDog
09/06/07 at 10:03 PM
Maria
There are some things his grandchildren said they knew but did not want to discuss and of course we respected that. But some of what they told us differs from some things we've heard from a lot of people in Stokes County but what you have to realize is that their grandmother, Arthur's daughter Maybell has been told by her mother Nina from her perspective. The closer you are to the person, in this case Arthur's closeness to his father Charlie Lawson, it's much harder to believe anything bad about him. They are family and family sticks together. You've heard the saying Blood is thicker than water? That is very true with the Lawsons. They are real protective of Charlie. But the 2 grandchildren we talked with were very nice and answered what questions they felt comfortable with. And we appreciated that.
Maria
09/06/07 at 10:25 PM
LuvMyDog
I understand that blood is thicker than water, but I'm sure and for reasons no one can explain that they wouldn't want to say too much about what happened that day......maybe they would even want to forget it!! I can totally understand that. I almost feel like I'm invading their privacy by asking these questions. I really feel bad for what Arthur had to endure until his death and wonder what his wife and children had to endure also? And as always thank you for your reply!
09/07/07 at 08:00 AM
LuvMyDog
Don't know the direction Arthur traveled when he left the house that day. I remember cutting through the woods continually when I was little to go to the store. Perhaps he did the same. I would think main roads where hardly in existence back then, so I wouldn't think it would be unusual for Arthur to have cut through the woods.
LuvMyDog
09/07/07 at 09:35 AM
Maria
Well something sure made him pause for 3 or 4 hours. Fear or waiting for Arthur are the only plausible reasons that have come to my mind. The pacing around and around in the woods speaks to me of both fear of killing himself AND and waiting on Arthur. So............Anybody else wanna weigh in on this? We could keep score. So far it's Fear of dying 1. Waiting on Arthur 1. Undecided 1. Although I stated earlier that I think he was waiting for Arthur to return so he could ambush him and kill him too I really should weigh in as undecided because I do have one problem with the waiting on Arthur theory and that is that Charlie waited a good while before shooting himself after realizing that it was too late to ambush Arthur because of the crowd that had formed. He was definitely waiting on something though.
Maria
09/07/07 at 12:27 PM
love2xstitch
You can count my vote as NOT waiting outside for Arthur. I believe that he had a very difficult time killing himself. I think his original plan was to wait for Arthur in the house and then kill himself or skip town. (Sixty dollars was found his pocket.) I think he got spooked and started to panic when things did not go according to plan. I do not think Charlie expected his brother to show up that day. Charlie was known to roam aimlessly throughout sites on his property. So his walking and pacing for hours really does not surprise me, not uncommon in mental illness either. I think we can all agree Charlie had some mental illnesses.
Cheers,
Stitch
lov2xstitch
09/07/07 at 12:33 PM
Thanks for weighing in Beth, especially since you added a different twist to it. Haven't heard that scenario before..the skipping town part. That's really interesting. THANKS.
Maria
09/07/07 at 12:58 PM
Angel71242
I feel like he would have killed Arthur if possible, but by the time he ran out to the woods he had given up on that. I think he paced around thinking about how he killed his whole family and struggled to kill himself. I think he planned to kill himself from the beginning.
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 01:03 PM
Maria
I'm 99% sure Charlie was not expecting his brother to show up for a visit when he did. But Charlie would have had a very hard time skipping town, at least on that day because Sheriff Taylor had men out looking EVERYWHERE for Charlie Lawson. They were stopping any and every car they came across, checking for Charlie and asking the people in the cars they stopped if they had seen Charlie Lawson. I'm sure Charlie probably didn't know that so if he intended on skipping town why didn't he get in his car and skedaddle the minute he saw Elijah and Claude running from the house to get help? Why take off like a banshee through the woods?
Maria
09/07/07 at 01:16 PM
love2xstitch
When I said "skip town" I was referring to Charlie's potential backup plan. I believe he meant to commit suicide, but killing himself would be much harder thing to do. Folks say he was a man of pride. What pride is there in killing yourself? He may have anticipated some difficulty there. I should have elaborated a little more on that. Sorry for the confusion.
Beth
love2xstitch
09/07/07 at 01:30 PM
LuvMyDog
I hardly think he had any "pride" when he bashed his children's heads in or shot his wife and the rest of his children. He was a very sick human being. It doesn't surprise me that he paced around for hours, but gotta stick to my guns on this one (excuse the pun) that he was waiting and getting restless for Arthur's return. Maybe he was even hoping that Arthur would shoot him? Just curious as to why he had a gun and a rifle.
LuvMyDog
09/07/07 at 01:57 PM
Maria
I'm becoming REAL glad I asked people in here to weigh in on this vote. This has gotten real interesting.
Maria
09/07/07 at 03:06 PM
Maria
Why Charlie had the gun and rifle with him is another interesting question. Especially since at that point the rifle was damaged goods.You people are good!! I'll say this much, you are definitely giving me a run for my money.
Maria
09/07/07 at 03:26 PM
Angel71242
He had both in case one jammed up. And one did jam right?
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 03:31 PM
love2xstitch
That is a very good theory, Michelle. I never thought about that before. Maybe he knew he couldn't kill himself, and was going to put Arthur in a position where he was forced to defend himself. I am going to have to give this new idea some serious thought. After all, he did send Arthur to the store for more shells. I wonder if he took the gun with him as well? That would set the perfect scenario. I will have to discuss this theory over supper tonight. It's a good one" Maybe that plan was foiled when Elijah showed up.
Stitch
love2xstitch
09/07/07 at 03:35 PM
Maria
Right, the rifle had jammed and bent. So why did he take both the broken rifle AND the shotgun with him into the woods. He could only shoot himself once and it would have to be (and was) with the shotgun. So why did he take the broken and therefore useless rifle into the woods. Why not just leave it in the house?
Maria
09/07/07 at 03:38 PM
Angel71242
That's a good question!! Maybe he wanted people to think it was someone else (cuz they would recognize his rifle). But that doesn't make any sense if he was planning on killing himself from the start...which I believe he was.
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 03:50 PM
Maria
I definitely believe and agree that Elijah and Claude's visit to the house at the time they went threw an unexpected glitch in Charlie's plans. But taking the rifle with him into the woods still baffles me.
Maria
09/07/07 at 03:59 PM
Maria
Now that I think about it, did I not hear something once about there being 3 guns with Charlie's body that day?
Maria
09/07/07 at 04:02 PM
love2xstitch
I have no clue as to why Charlie took both guns. There doesn't seem to be any logic for taking a broken gun. Maybe he was hoping to get the other one working? He did have an obsession with his guns, but then why wouldn't he take all three? You have asked a very good question, yet another topic for dinner.
love2xstitch
09/07/07 at 04:11PM
LuvMyDog
I'm glad that Arthur didn't come home when Charlie expected him. I wonder if he was going to try and pin the murders on Arthur and that was the reason for both the guns? Perhaps he was planning on shooting Arthur and placing the rifle in his hands to make it look like he did the killing and then he could tell everyone that he shot Arthur with the pistol in self defense.
LuvMyDog
09/07/07 at 04:15 PM
Angel71242
Awesome theory! I That really makes sense!! Gives us something to think about!
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 04:17 PM
Angel71242
I still deep down think that he was planning on killing himself from the very beginning, but that is a whole new way of thinking about it Michelle! Very interesting....
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 05:04 PM
Maria
I also think that he meant to kill himself. Why would he hang around after killing his family. Where could he go? He could never see Arthur again or his Mother and brothers and sisters. He would either have to be on the run for the rest of his life or go to prison. Not very good choices there. And remember, he made the comment one week before he| killed his family that he wouldn't mind dying if he could take his family with him. Therefore I weigh in on the side of him waiting for Arthur to come home so he could kill him and then kill himself.
Maria
09/07/07 at 05:10 PM
Michael818
Hey guys! Yeah, I think Charlie was probably planning to die all along too. But he MIGHT have wanted to make Arthur or someone else kill him so he wouldn't be a suicide. Isn't there something in Primitive baptist belief about suicides not being able to enter Heaven?
On the other hand, Charlie might have been planning to disappear. I know it doesn't sound like much to us, but the amount of money found on him WAS rather a large amount for a poor dirt farmer to have on him in those days. He could have gotten a bus ticket to a pretty distant destination back then. And remember... it was a lot harder to track down people back then. For years there was a question as to whether or not the man gunned down outside the Biograph was in fact John Dillinger. In some circles, there is doubt to this day.
He PROBABLY meant to die, yes. But we are just left back in the same place... More questions than answers.
Michael R.
Michael818
09/07/07 at 05:14 PM
Maria
Not for me. I truly believe he sent Arthur away so he couldn't prevent him from killing everyone. And that he planned on hiding in wait for Arthur to get back from the store so he could ambush him and kill him, then kill himself. It's his words "I wouldn't mind dying if I could take my family with me" that convinces me.
Maria
09/08/07 at 05:11 AM
Maria
Why did Charlie go into the woods period? Other than Carrie and Maybell whom he killed outside the tobacco barn due to them being there when he began his shooting spree, he shot everyone else inside the house. Why did he choose to go outside, away from his family, in the bitter cold, to kill himself? He wanted to be with his family in death as he had said the week before, so why leave the majority of them inside while he goes outside and a good ways into the pine thicket and kill himself? Why not lay down on his bed, beside the fire, with his family, and lie there among them in death? WHY?
Maria
09/08/07 at 07:48 AM
LuvMyDog
That's a good question Maria. I have read so many accounts of who was murdered first and it only makes sense to me that he must have killed Carrie and Maybell last and stood in watch for Arthur for his return. Or maybe he couldn't bring himself to go inside the home after what he did and view all the carnage he created. In reading some of the post on this very subject this morning (and I will have to eat my words), I posted about Charlie perhaps wanting Arthur to shoot him and take the blame. If this was true, he wouldn't have written two suicide notes!!
LuvMyDog
09/08/07 at 08:03 AM
Maria
Way to go Michelle and Manco. I think you have begun to see the need to learn every little detail from everyone in the know back then in order to be better informed before believing this or believing that. You have to learn that each thing someone tells you about this story is important and fits together with something else. The person who tells you what they know or have heard may think it's insignificant but take my word for it, it isn't. And Manco, you brought up a very valid point about Arthur wasn't going back home straight away after his trip to buy more shells. He and Sanders were going to go hunting again before going home. Which meant Charlie would have had a very very long wait. And it was really cold in those woods that day. I hadn't even thought about that!!
Maria
09/08/07 at 11:29 AM
Michael818
Just sent a private message concerning Carrie & Maybelle, when something occurred to me.
I said that all evidence points to these two dying first. But... They were getting ready to go to their uncle's. IF Charlie saw this and got in a hurry, they MIGHT have had a chance to be dressed to go, then ran when the fray began.
Still, with all the other pieces of the puzzle, this just doesn't seem to fit. Did he shoot Marie, then go outside for Fannie, then come back in for the others, THEN go chasing after the last two? I don't think so. I just don't think he could have ever caught those girls in the time frame he had. besides, they surely would have been screaming their heads off and running as fast as they could!
No, I'm afraid this is probably one of the VERY FEW things Ms. Smith got right (as i said in that email). Don't like granting her too much with all the falsehoods and half-truths she printed, but it just fits. Kind regards to everybody!
Michael R.
Michael818
09/08/07 at 11:36 AM
Maria
I have always thought and said that Carrie and Maybell were the first ones shot that day so I'm glad to see someone else who thinks the same way!!! But I also still think that Charlie intended to kill Arthur and himself.
Maria
09/08/07 at 04:27 PM
Michael818
My question is this: If Maybell and Carrie were shot first then why didn't Fannie and Marie get concerned when they heard the sounds of gunfire so close. I understand that people would hunt at that particular time of year but this was practically in their own back yards. And question 2: Why two guns and two suicide notes....this is so baffling to me......I just want to figure this out for some reason!!
Michael R.
Michael818
09/08/07 at 04:53 PM
Maria
The tobacco barn was a good 50 feet or yards? from the house. With the doors and windows to the house closed the sound of gunshots may have been heard but muffled. It has been said that Fannie went out onto the porch and asked Charlie what was wrong and that Charlie shot her. How can anyone know what if anything Fannie said to Charlie at that time? No one there survived to tell what she said or if she said anything. It was also said that when Marie heard Fannie being shot she ran out the door and started screaming no Papa no. Here again, how could anyone know what if anything Marie said. The bottom line for me is, how do we know if the sequence of who was shot first and what was said etc. has been accurately told? We can only assume what and when and how things happened that day according to information we have with no way of knowing if this information is accurate. During the time of the shootings no one lived to tell us who was shot first, last, and in between nor what was said by anyone if anything was said at all. It's been said that the rifle jammed up. Everyone who was shot was shot with the shotgun except for 12 year old Carrie. She was shot with the rifle. That would seem to indicate that Carrie was the first person shot because if the rifle jammed that would explain why everyone else who was shot was shot with the shotgun. But Charlie obviously had both the rifle and shotgun with him at the tobacco barn because if the rifle jammed he would have to walk back to the house to get the shotgun in order to shoot Maybell if he hadn't already had it with him. Why there were 2 suicide notes I don't know.
Maria
09/08/07 at 08:18 PM
LuvMyDog
Maybe that is why he had the two guns then, he probably already knew he had problems with the rifle jamming so he took the shotgun just in case? I still think it makes more since to me that he took out the people inside the cabin before he shot Maybell and Carrie. I still believe no matter how stifling the sound of the shotgun was when you have children outside when a shot is fired you will be alarmed. But that is just my opinion.
09/08/07 at 08:50 PM
Maria
If that were true then why did Fannie go out side and gather an arm load of wood and ask Charlie what was wrong. According to her death certificate she was shot in the chest so she and Charlie were facing each other. And how would Carrie and Maybell have had time to grab their coats and caps and put them on then get past Charlie as they fled from the house? Fannie was definitely shot outside and then her body was dragged inside where her feet were close to the door. Claude remembered seeing blood on the front porch, if Charlie had shot Fannie inside the house Marie would have had time to grab the poker and brain him.
Maria
09/09/07 at 08:24 AM
Maria
Charlie did send Arthur to the store to buy shotgun shells. And yes Arthur went to Charlie first but he went to his father to get more shells but Charlie wouldn't or couldn't give him any so he "sent" him to the store. In that sense the statement that Charlie sent Arthur to the store is correct. I said from early on in this forum that I did not believe Charlie chose that particular day, Christmas Day, to kill his family. But that I believed the timing turned out to be one of "opportunity." Charlie saw a window of opportunity open when Arthur came up and asked for shells from Charlie. On December 18th Charlie Lawson had and expressed a death wish. And that death wish included his family. His own brother's son provided the world with proof of that. Something happened at some point in Charlie Lawson's life that made him prefer death over life, not only his death but the deaths of his wife and children. No one knows for certain what that "something" was nor when that "something" occurred, but rest assured it did. He planned to kill himself and take his family with him, of that I'm certain. He just hadn't come up with the right timing. But when Arthur asked for shotgun shells and Charlie had to send him away from the house to get them, I believe it was that "spur of the moment" solution to the shotgun shells that told Charlie Lawson......now is the chance I've been waiting for, and he acted out on that chance immediately and efficiently. The window of opportunity opened, the deed was done. There was no going back. The rest is history.
Maria
09/09/07 at 08:40 AM
Michael818
OK... but what of the "Christmas Surprise" statements we've heard of. Or is that just more Smithism?
Michael R.
Michael818
09/09/07 at 08:42 AM
sissy
Man y'all have been busy. OK here is my opinion on this subject. Charlie did not mean to leave Arthur behind he meant to take out his entire family, but he got caught before he could. Carrie and Maybelle were shot first, I think Fannie did indeed hear the shots, she was shot on the porch, so 1 think she was outside getting wood or- maybe even heard the shots and came out to see what was going on, not sure on that. Charlie killed her then he came in and killed the rest of the family, after they were all dead that's when he dragged Fanny in and placed pillows under there heads.
sissy
09/09/07 at 08:50 AM
Maria
The Christmas surprise statement may have been one of the many isms!!!
Maria
10/20/07 at 07:11 AM
doodlebug
Is it possible that Charlie went back into the woods to wait for Arthur? Obviously, if Arthur had returned before the neighbors got there, he would have immediately noticed something was wrong, (blood on the porch from Fannie..) Charlie could have intended to wait for Arthur and "ambush" him when he returned, thinking this was the only way he stood a chance against Arthur. The neighbors discovering the bodies first threw a wrench in those plans.
It might also explain why he spent "hours" in the woods pacing and attempted to write the notes.....his original plan was thrown off. Considering his mental state, this could have spiraled him further into a psychotic state.
This is all just a guess, I'm not a psychologist, just come from a crazy family lol
doodlebug
10/20/07 at 01:23 PM
Maria
We've discussed this theory several times in here and most of us have said that we think Charlie was indeed hiding in the woods waiting to ambush Arthur. So at least your theory on this aspect lines up with most of us in here.
Maria
10/23/07 at 02:23 PM
Michael818
Hey, I just realized something... Why didn't ELIJAH, CLAUDE, and the other one, notice blood on the porch and in the snow? Seems that much blood, plus a trail where Charlie drug Fannie inside, would have been pretty obvious. Had there been hunting that morning too, or was it just target practice? I forgot.
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 02:27 PM
Maria
I believe it was said that they did notice some blood on the front porch, I just can't remember where and who said it. I'm inclined to believe it was Claude Lawson who said it in his televised interview or someone else said he mentioned it. They had been hunting rabbit at the time of the murders but ran out of shells so they headed over to Charlie's to wish him and the family Merry Christmas. The rest is HISTORY.
Maria
10/23/07 at 02:32 PM
Michael818
Oh, OK. All the versions I'd ever heard said they tried to get in to surprise their relatives for a 'Merry Christmas," that they couldn't because something (Fannie) was blocking the door, so someone looked in the window.
I don't remember Claude saying that on camera, at least on my DVD, which was a n early one. Has it been revised?
I'll look when I get home.
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 02:36 PM
Maria
I'm not sure it is on the DVD. His entire televised interview is not on our DVD. Only a portion of it I think.
Maria
10/23/07 at 02:40 PM
Michael818
Darn! Well, let me know if he did. Claude Lawson has passed away too, right?
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 02:41 PM
Angel71242
Claude Lawson is on the Christmas Family Tragedy DVD? (Sorry - its been awhile since I've watched it) And do you know what his entire televised interview was on? Some news show or something?
Angel71242
10/23/07 at 02:45 PM
Maria
Yes I'm afraid so. But here's something that hit me just a few minutes ago. Look at the photo of the house, the front porch is not that wide at all. If Fannie was standing on the front porch with the door opened when Charlie shot her in the chest, would she have fallen forward or backwards? If backwards, being such a tall person she would probably have landed most of the way into the house. The force of the shotgun blast would have sent her flying, wouldn't it?
Maria
10/23/07 at 02:47 PM
Michael818
Yes, you're right, depending on how close Charlie was! Was she, perhaps, off the porch? Or was this, like JFK (words dripping with deep sarcasm here), a case of the "jet effect," where she fell towards the blast? It does need some looking at!
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 02:49 PM
Maria
Claude Lawson's televised interview was aired on the news one night.
Maria
10/23/07 at 03:11 PM
Maria
I just checked my DVD of the Documentary and the only part of Claude's interview in our Documentary has him telling about the accident Charlie had with the mattock. Nothing about when they found the bodies.
Maria
10/23/07 at 03:20 PM
Michael818
Wait, i SWEAR I remember him saying on camera that they had gone by to say "Christmas gift on 'em." An odd way of putting it, but I really thought he said that on there. Unless I have him mixed up with someone else. I'm gonna watch when I get home. Disturbs me that I thought I saw that, and it's not on the documentary!
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 04:06 PM
Maria
I thought Esther Johnson was the one who spoke about the "Christmas gift" saying, back then when you visited someone on Christmas Day if you hollered Christmas Gift before the other person did, they had to give you a gift. If they said it first you had to give them a gift. It was a custom back then. I like it!!!
Maria
10/23/07 at 04:10 PM
Michael818
Hey Maria... Christmas Gift".....!!!!!!!!
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 04:12 PM
Maria
YOU GOT ME Michael!!!!!!! Hey Angel. Christmas Gift!!!!!!
Maria
10/23/07 at 04:13 PM
Angel71242
Dang it)! Hey Doodlebug...Christmas Gift!!
Angel71242
10/23/07 at 04:14 PM
Michael818
Christmas Gift on EVERYBODY!!!!
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 04:17 PM
Maria
Forget it Michael, it's only good on Christmas Day!!!!!
Maria
10/23/07 at 04:31 PM
Michael818
Ahhh, but in SOME fairy tales, EVERY day is Christmas day
Michael R.
Michael818
10/24/07 at 08:42 AM
Maria
Getting back to the blood on the front porch: if memory serves me well, what Claude Lawson said was that they saw a small amount of blood on the porch and just thought it came from the hunting trip Charlie and Arthur had gone on that morning. If this is accurate then it tells me that the force of the shotgun blast threw Fannie onto her back, through the opened front door, and into the house. At least partially into the house. That would account for the absence of bloody drag marks on the porch. Since her feet were blocking the front door then Charlie must have stepped over Fannie's body to enter the house, then drug her the rest of the way in. He then had to step over her body again when he left the house after the killings were over or he left through the back door or kitchen door, this of course is IF she was actually on the front porch porch when she was shot. Who was left to tell where Fannie was standing when she was shot? No one.
Maria
10/24/07 at 04:45 PM
doodlebug
How many gifts am I liable for now??? Jeez, the kid better not be hoping for much!
On the topic of Fannie being shot, if Charlie were outside coming toward the house, she would have fallen backward toward the house. Oddly enough, being shot won't throw you backwards unless your momentum is already carrying you in that direction. She may have fallen or stumbled into the house, but it wouldn't have knocked her into the house. Shotgun pellets would be moving fast enough to be destructive, but they don't have enough mass in relation to a human to actually propel a body.
My guess would be with Maria, that Fannie was in the doorway or very close to the doorway when she was shot, causing her to fall back into the house.
doodlebug
10/24/07 at 05:06 PM
LuvMyDog
Just curious....why does everyone think she was killed outside? Maybe she was exiting the door to see where the shots were coming from when Charlie shot Maybell and Carrie, or maybe Charlie entered the house and she was standing near the door talking to Maria, who was at the fireplace at the time. Remember, the house was very small, there wasn't much room to form a distance. I agree with doodlebug, I also don't believe the gunfire would have had enough force to throw her back, unless he was at dose range. Of course I'm not a firearm specialist, don't even have a gun but I think what we see on TV re-enactments aren't the same in real life.
LuvMyDog
10/24/07 at 05:31 PM
Michael818
Charlie would have had to have been close for the blast to throw her backwards. If he had any distance, the impact wouldn't have been strong enough to do that (I've seen someone shot up dose with a shotgun {it was an accident}, and if really close, it does carry enough force to toss you).
I just realized that the only sources I remember saying Fannie was outside were those two books, and maybe a newspaper article or two. I believe their theory was that she had stepped out to get some firewood, is that right, Maria?
Michael R.
Michael818
10/24/07 at 05:37 PM
Maria
Right? Who knows really. But it is what I've heard.
Maria
10/24/07 at 05:52 PM
Michael818
Not sure if the sound of shots would have raised a red flag with her, because there'd already been shooting going on. What do you think, Maria?
Michael R.
Michael818
10/24/07 at 05:53 PM
Maria
That close to the house might well have alarmed her.
Maria
10/24/07 at 05:55 PM
Michael818
But weren't they in the yard earlier? Or, at least, closer than the tobacco barn? My impression was that the target practice had taken place in the front or back yard. Or did Charlie have some sort of area set aside for such fun and games?
Michael R.
Michael818
10/24/07 at 06:27 PM
doodlebug
I think you're right, Michael, it was said in the books that Fannie was outside on the porch collecting firewood when she was shot. Micheal, correct me if I'm wrong, but would she not have had to have been shot at almost point blank range in order to propel her backwards?
LuvMyDog, I really can't see her stepping out because of gunshots. It's too common of a sound around the holidays, to be honest, even now, most people around here don't even notice the sound of gunfire during active hunting times, other than to note in passing that we heard it. A lot of people hunt in the woods around my house, last year, there were several hunters out on Thanksgiving day, no idea what they're actually hunting, sometimes think they just want to hear things go "boom"......
doodlebug
10/24/07 at 06:32 PM
Maria
According to her height, she was really tall, I think that when she fell backwards most of her body would have landed inside the house. Propelled or not. The porch was long but not wide.
Maria
10/24/07 at 06:42 PM
doodlebug
Good point, Maria. It seems like she would have left the door at least cracked when stepping out to the porch if she was actually going out to get wood, it's hard to carry a load and open the door at the same time!!
It just makes more sense to me to think that she was shot either right at the doorway, just inside or just outside it. The inside/outside depends on the story you believe. Did Charlie actually drag her into the house, or did he simply step over her? Don't think I've ever seen pics of the other side of the room, they would possibly show marks determining if he actually did shift the body from where it fell and how far. Depending on where she actually was, he would may have had to move the body some to get the door closed, explaining anyone's assumption at the time that he drug the body from the porch.
doodlebug
10/24/07 at 07:22 PM
LuvMyDog
I also live were there is a lot of hunting......but I think if I personally heard it that close to my house, I would indeed step outside to see if possible hunters were in my yard......being as I have dogs, cats and children! I think that Fannie may possibly have done the same, knowing she had just sent two of her smallest children off for a visit!! Just an assumption on my part, being a mother.
LuvMyDog
10/24/07 at 08:04 PM
Maria
I agree. That was close to the house. Charlie wasn't suppose to be out shooting at that time. Fannie knew Arthur had left to go to the store. The two young daughters were out there. Yep, it would have raised a red flag for me.
Maria
10/24/07 at 09:53 PM
doodlebug
The tobacco barn would most likely have been some distance from the house. Close enough to easily walk to, far enough away that it wasn't a fire hazard to the house or stable. ..all I have to go on is my own experience and the hills and hollers here make sounds do strange things. Most of my family tends to ignore gunshots on typical hunting days unless it is literally right outside our windows.
doodlebug
10/24/07 at 09:58 PM
LuvMyDog
I think if it was this close to home then it was right outside their windows! I just believe that someone in that house had to of heard something that close to home. I live in the boonies and am used to shotgun fire, but if I was to hear something close to home, it would be a natural instinct to go outside and see what the commotion is.
LuvMyDog
10/24/07 at 10:02 PM
Maria
I be durn if I would go out to see. I'd run for cover under the bed or flee out the back door. I have never held a gun or heard one go off. I am terrified of guns. I can't even be in the kitchen when someone opens a can of biscuits because of that sudden popping sound it makes. I'm serious.
Maria
10/24/07 at 11:01 PM
LuvMyDog
Maria.......what the heck! ! Surely you have heard gunfire before? Well, let me tell you.....it would be loud enough if its outside in your yard to be concerned II That is the issue I'm concerned with. I still believe if it was this close to home, anyone inside would have known this and would have been alarmed at how close the firing was.
LuvMyDog
10/24/07 at 11:08 PM
Maria
Nope, I really haven't. Except of course on T.V. And yes I would be alarmed if I heard gunfire close by my home but I would be too frightened to expose myself by going outside to look. I would say 50 Hail Marys and hide til it was over.
Maria
10/24/07 at 11:32 PM
LuvMyDog
You are too much!! I guess I always pictured you as a person that would hail all storms no matter what........that's
funny!!
LuvMyDog
10/25/07 at 06:31 AM
Maria
The only thing I've ever run from is a can of biscuits. But any other storm you'll find me eye-ball to eye-ball and toe-nail to toe-nail with.
Maria
10/25/07 at 06:38 AM
doodlebug
I spent wayyy too long on the phone last night with a friend who has had training in abnormal psychology. According to her, sparing Arthur speaks of his relationship with Charlie. In some ways, Charlie may no longer have considered Arthur as under his protection or as even being a part of the family.
Her take: Family annihilators generally feel they are "saving" their family from something. The murders usually come from possessiveness, needing to control, a sexual inadequacy or loss of a relationship. They are almost *never* spur of the moment, but carefully planned and thought out, the murderer is in complete control of his actions. By not murdering Arthur, from a psychology standpoint, it may be speaking of his feelings toward Arthur. He may not have felt that he had a need to save Arthur, or protect him. He may not have felt that Arthur deserved to be "saved". If he felt that he couldn't control Arthur, that could tie back to why he was spared in the end.
According to most of her studies, what has been said about Charlie fits the profile of an annihilator perfectly. He was highly regarded, loved his family, seen as being devoted to his family, they also tend to perceive their family as being perfect and whatever sets them off is destroying that perfection. If I've majorly messed up anything, it's purely my fault, was taking notes with a sharpie very late last night, loll
doodlebug
10/25/07 at 07:11 AM
Maria
It's totally screwed up, hope you have a great long distance plan...JUST KIDDING!!!!! Though I'm not a psychologist that person's assessment of Charlie Lawson sounds spot on to me. That part about why he didn't kill Arthur sounds really good. If it weren't for the fact that I believe he really and truly meant to ambush and kill him. I'm going to go with the theory that he saw his family as being perfect and when something such as Marie getting pregnant or Marie exposing him for getting her pregnant would dispel that image he had presented to the community of his perfect family and make him seem to blame and that was the catalyst that made him do what he did.
Maria
10/25/07 at 07:13 AM
doodlebug
Something else I wanted to add....she kept saying that something about posing the bodies or the way they were posed, something about it (it was really really late..) kept bothering her. She wanted to check on it before really commenting on it....
doodlebug
10/25/07 at 10:15 AM
LuvMyDog
I just read this article on Clews The Historic True Crime Blog, and thought it applied to doodlebug's last post.
"Like John List decades later, Charlie Lawson clearly planned for days or weeks. He took the whole clan to town ten days before Christmas to buy new clothes -- outfits that they'd be buried in - the photos where in newspapers across the region. After his awful deeds, Lawson, like List, collected them, posed some of them.
To me the cases were very similar. Charlie Lawson was well regarded, a "good man," someone who was honest and did kind deeds for his neighbors. None of the "usual" explanations for family annihilators appear in this case. Lawson did not seem to suffer from religious delusion or any delusion at all. He in fact objected to his family attending church.
LuvMyDog
10/25/07 at 12:56 PM
Angel71242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
The only thing I've ever run from is a can of biscuits. But any other storm you'll find me eye-ball to
eye-ball and toe-nail to toe-nail with.
End quote.
Can of biscuits huh...good to know...
Angel71242
10/25/07 at 03:44 PM
Maria
I've always heard the rifle he shot Carrie with jammed. That's why I think she was the first person to be killed. All of the others who were shot..Fannie, Marie, and Maybell were shot with the shotgun as well as Charlie himself. The other three were bludgeoned to death.
Maria
10/25/07 at 05:25 PM
Michael818
Back to the sound of shots. That barn where Carrie and Maybelle were killed was some distance from the house from all I've heard, including someone who took a pic in the mid eighties. The shots which killed them, therefore, would not have been "right outside their windows." Inside the house, from that distance, the shot sounds could have come from any direction. I think she was going out for wood, and got popped either just outside the door, or in the door frame. If Charlie were still some distance from the house, impact would have had a minimal effect on the trajectory of her fall. But if he had gotten so close that he was right on top of her, at point blank range, impact could have thrown her a few feet.
When my cousin was accidentally shot, the 12 gauge was just a foot, no more from him, and he was lifted in the air and thrown back from the fence. The boy was lucky. Though his right arm is useless, he IS alive! Fannie, whether hit full in the chest, or back would not have stood much of a chance.
Michael R.
Michael818
10/25/07 at 10:31 PM
doodlebug
Michael, I've been all over the GIS trying to pin point appx where the tobacco barns were. Unfortunately, the only basis I have to go on with relation to where buildings were is the map in the book...it's completely off. If we could determine whether or not Elijah Lawson's home were still standing that would help determine the locations of the barns by current standards.
I can tell you this: Normally, a tobacco barn would have been distance from the house, they are a massive fire hazard. But, they would have also generally had several large hardwood trees around them to provide shade during the summer months, if they were in an open area. I'm sure many of you know exactly how hot and dirty putting up tobacco can be and any relief from the sun was welcome.
doodlebug
10/25/07 at 11:09 PM
LuvMyDog
Tobacco barn or not, I know enough about hunting to know where a sound is close or off in a distance, you get used to the sounds if you are familiar with gunfire!! I am sure that Fannie was used to the sound of gunfire and would be alarmed with the sound being this close to her house. This is just my opinion.
LuvMyDog
10/25/07 at 11:26 PM
doodlebug
That's why I'm trying to figure out just how far away the barn was....most of the ones I've ever worked in were far enough away from the house that the sounds of the shots wouldn't have seemed very close to the house itself.
doodlebug
10/26/07 at 10:00 AM
Angel71242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaels818
That barn where Carrie and Maybelle were killed was some distance from the house from all I've heard, including someone who took a pic in the mid eighties.
End Quote:
THAT'S what I want to see!!! I KNOW that some of the people who toured that place for the fifty year anniversary took pictures!!!!! Please Please come forward people and post your pictures!!!!!!!!
Angel71242
10/26/07 at 10:04 AM
Angel71242
As for why Fannie stepped out on the porch or didn't step out on the porch or whether the gun shot was alarmingly close or not alarmingly close - my goodness - ya'll are just going back and forth on that one!! Agree to disagree and lets ponder more meaningful questions!!
Angel71242
11/17/07 at 04:48 PM
Michael818
Agreed. But, in another recent thread, Maria revealed that the tobacco barn was NOT so close to the house after all. Thus, the shots would probably not have been so alarming to Fannie. Since they were so far behind the house, they were probably faint, if she heard them at all, over the sounds of life in the house that day.
Michael818
11/17/07 at 06:22 PM
Maria
Actually it was never said she heard the shots. It was said that Fannie was outside on the porch and when she saw Charlie running towards her with the shotgun she said to him, "Charlie what's wrong" and without a word he shot her dead. But here again, who survived the killings that could have told anyone what Fannie said? I know it was previously posted in here about Fannie hearing the shots but that isn't correct. Other people, (neighbors) claimed to have heard the shots so it was probably assumed that if they did, so did Fannie.
Maria
11/17/07 at 09:43 PM
LuvMyDog
I believe that Fannie heard the shots like every one else and maybe that is why she went outside? Maybe she didn't go outside to get wood, but was concerned about the shots, since Maybell and Carrie had just left to go outside? (This is a mother's point of view!)
LuvMyDog
11/17/07 at 09:52 PM
Maria
I guess that's possible. Mothers tend to sense, in fact to know, when their child or in this case children are in danger. She may very well have, in a supernatural sort of way, felt the shots that ended the life of two of her daughters. Or some unreasonable fear may have grabbed her soul in the moment of their deaths. I think you just hit on a great idea Michelle.
Maria
01/16/08 at 08:31 PM
laurie1125
After the reality set in, I wonder what Arthur was thinking knowing his father was waiting for him to come home and kill him as well.
laurie1125
01/17/08 at 07:20 AM
Maria
Good question Laurie. Probably a whole lot of fear and anger. But truth be told he probably was never able to believe his own father wanted to kill him or that it was even his father who killed his mother, brothers and sisters. He would have clung to a belief that it was someone else that killed them. At times like that the mind has to protect itself and it will grab at anything to do just that.
Maria
Maria
While going over some interviews Robert Carroll did a good while back when he was writing a book about the history of Stokes County, I saw where he quoted a Mrs. Watts as saying, and I quote, "The Lawson family killing was really a tragedy in my life. The eldest son survived, was away from home and it was thought his father sent him to Germanton on purpose." Unquote.
I find the words, "on purpose" interesting. She was saying that even back then the people in the community thought that way about it. If this is indeed true, and I for one have always thought that way about it as well, I can't help but wonder why. Did Charlie want to hurt Arthur in the worst way possible or did he want the Lawson line to continue it's gene pool or was Charlie concerned about Arthur's ability to stop him from killing everyone else? Or could he have planned to take out Arthur last, when he returned from the store and could no longer prevent him from killing the others?
Maria
09/06/07 at 08:46 AM
LuvMyDog
I think Charlie had full intentions on killing Arthur when he returned, but I think his plan was spoiled when he heard voices of visiting friends and family. I believe that's when he turned the gun on himself.
LuvMyDog
09/06/07 at 08:48 AM
sissy
In my opinion I think Arthur was left behind because Charlie knew Arthur could have stopped him. But I always thought if the people had not shown up and found the other bodies that Charlie would have killed Arthur too. I wonder if in later years if people threw up the fact that Arthur was the only survivor, maybe even thought he had
something to do with it?
sissy
09/06/07 at 09:07 AM
Angel71242
I agree with Sissy. I think Charlie sent him away because he was worried that Arthur would have stopped him. There's no way he could have killed all of them with Arthur there. And I agree too that he probably would have shot Arthur when he got back if he had had the chance.
Angel71242
09/06/07 at 09:08 AM
love2xstitch
I agree with Michelle. I think that sending Arthur and waiting for his return was part of Charlie's plan. Only his plan did not include visitors that day. I am curious as to what position the bodies were in when Elijah opened the door that day? I have read somewhere that it is believed Charlie was seen standing in front of the upstairs window.
Were the bodies positioned differently after Charlie's brother had left with his sons? That might help determine whether Charlie knew someone had found the bodies. If that is the case, there was simply not enough time to wait for Arthur's return.
love2xstitch
09/06/07 at 09:14 AM
Maria
Elijah's son Claude Lawson said that when he opened the front door it would only open a little bit because the door hit up against Fannie's feet So we at least know where Fannie's body was positioned. There were two pillows side by side at the foot of the dresser. I assume that James and Raymond's bodies were lying there with their little heads on the pillows. Marie was lying in front of the fireplace with her head closest to the fireplace. It's her blood you see on the floor in the photo. Marylou was in her crib.
Maria
09/06/07 at 09:16 AM
Angel71242
I'm sure he knew he had been found out because he ran and hid in the woods
Angel71242
09/06/07 at 09:19 AM
sissy
I agree with Angel. And the fact that it took him four hours to kill himself tells me he was waiting around for Arthur to come back.
sissy
09/06/07 at 10:06 AM
Maria
Either that or it was harder killing himself than killing someone else. He may have gotten scared when he thought about dying himself. Especially via a shotgun blast. Even though you may want to die it can still be scary. The instinct for self preservation is the strongest instinct man or animal has.
Maria
09/06/07 at 11:09 AM
LuvMyDog
I have a hard time believing that Charlie cared much about anything at that point, let alone himself, I just think his plan was spoiled because Arthur didn't come home as quickly as he had anticipated. I really believe he wanted to kill himself right away but he wanted to finish Arthur off first.
LuvMyDog
09/06/07 at 11:18 AM
Maria
Personally I agree with you Michelle. I was just throwing out all the reasons that could possibly have caused him to wait so long. My choice of theory is like yours, he was waiting on Arthur to get back from the store.
Maria
09/06/07 at 09:53 PM
LuvMyDog
I was just wondering, and excuse me if I am overstepping my boundaries here, but! wonder if anyone has talked to Arthur's children about what happened that day? I know it had to be mentioned to his wife at times and perhaps his children have some valuable info on that day? It just seems to me that somebody knows more than they want to say?
LuvMyDog
09/06/07 at 10:03 PM
Maria
There are some things his grandchildren said they knew but did not want to discuss and of course we respected that. But some of what they told us differs from some things we've heard from a lot of people in Stokes County but what you have to realize is that their grandmother, Arthur's daughter Maybell has been told by her mother Nina from her perspective. The closer you are to the person, in this case Arthur's closeness to his father Charlie Lawson, it's much harder to believe anything bad about him. They are family and family sticks together. You've heard the saying Blood is thicker than water? That is very true with the Lawsons. They are real protective of Charlie. But the 2 grandchildren we talked with were very nice and answered what questions they felt comfortable with. And we appreciated that.
Maria
09/06/07 at 10:25 PM
LuvMyDog
I understand that blood is thicker than water, but I'm sure and for reasons no one can explain that they wouldn't want to say too much about what happened that day......maybe they would even want to forget it!! I can totally understand that. I almost feel like I'm invading their privacy by asking these questions. I really feel bad for what Arthur had to endure until his death and wonder what his wife and children had to endure also? And as always thank you for your reply!
09/07/07 at 08:00 AM
LuvMyDog
Don't know the direction Arthur traveled when he left the house that day. I remember cutting through the woods continually when I was little to go to the store. Perhaps he did the same. I would think main roads where hardly in existence back then, so I wouldn't think it would be unusual for Arthur to have cut through the woods.
LuvMyDog
09/07/07 at 09:35 AM
Maria
Well something sure made him pause for 3 or 4 hours. Fear or waiting for Arthur are the only plausible reasons that have come to my mind. The pacing around and around in the woods speaks to me of both fear of killing himself AND and waiting on Arthur. So............Anybody else wanna weigh in on this? We could keep score. So far it's Fear of dying 1. Waiting on Arthur 1. Undecided 1. Although I stated earlier that I think he was waiting for Arthur to return so he could ambush him and kill him too I really should weigh in as undecided because I do have one problem with the waiting on Arthur theory and that is that Charlie waited a good while before shooting himself after realizing that it was too late to ambush Arthur because of the crowd that had formed. He was definitely waiting on something though.
Maria
09/07/07 at 12:27 PM
love2xstitch
You can count my vote as NOT waiting outside for Arthur. I believe that he had a very difficult time killing himself. I think his original plan was to wait for Arthur in the house and then kill himself or skip town. (Sixty dollars was found his pocket.) I think he got spooked and started to panic when things did not go according to plan. I do not think Charlie expected his brother to show up that day. Charlie was known to roam aimlessly throughout sites on his property. So his walking and pacing for hours really does not surprise me, not uncommon in mental illness either. I think we can all agree Charlie had some mental illnesses.
Cheers,
Stitch
lov2xstitch
09/07/07 at 12:33 PM
Thanks for weighing in Beth, especially since you added a different twist to it. Haven't heard that scenario before..the skipping town part. That's really interesting. THANKS.
Maria
09/07/07 at 12:58 PM
Angel71242
I feel like he would have killed Arthur if possible, but by the time he ran out to the woods he had given up on that. I think he paced around thinking about how he killed his whole family and struggled to kill himself. I think he planned to kill himself from the beginning.
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 01:03 PM
Maria
I'm 99% sure Charlie was not expecting his brother to show up for a visit when he did. But Charlie would have had a very hard time skipping town, at least on that day because Sheriff Taylor had men out looking EVERYWHERE for Charlie Lawson. They were stopping any and every car they came across, checking for Charlie and asking the people in the cars they stopped if they had seen Charlie Lawson. I'm sure Charlie probably didn't know that so if he intended on skipping town why didn't he get in his car and skedaddle the minute he saw Elijah and Claude running from the house to get help? Why take off like a banshee through the woods?
Maria
09/07/07 at 01:16 PM
love2xstitch
When I said "skip town" I was referring to Charlie's potential backup plan. I believe he meant to commit suicide, but killing himself would be much harder thing to do. Folks say he was a man of pride. What pride is there in killing yourself? He may have anticipated some difficulty there. I should have elaborated a little more on that. Sorry for the confusion.
Beth
love2xstitch
09/07/07 at 01:30 PM
LuvMyDog
I hardly think he had any "pride" when he bashed his children's heads in or shot his wife and the rest of his children. He was a very sick human being. It doesn't surprise me that he paced around for hours, but gotta stick to my guns on this one (excuse the pun) that he was waiting and getting restless for Arthur's return. Maybe he was even hoping that Arthur would shoot him? Just curious as to why he had a gun and a rifle.
LuvMyDog
09/07/07 at 01:57 PM
Maria
I'm becoming REAL glad I asked people in here to weigh in on this vote. This has gotten real interesting.
Maria
09/07/07 at 03:06 PM
Maria
Why Charlie had the gun and rifle with him is another interesting question. Especially since at that point the rifle was damaged goods.You people are good!! I'll say this much, you are definitely giving me a run for my money.
Maria
09/07/07 at 03:26 PM
Angel71242
He had both in case one jammed up. And one did jam right?
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 03:31 PM
love2xstitch
That is a very good theory, Michelle. I never thought about that before. Maybe he knew he couldn't kill himself, and was going to put Arthur in a position where he was forced to defend himself. I am going to have to give this new idea some serious thought. After all, he did send Arthur to the store for more shells. I wonder if he took the gun with him as well? That would set the perfect scenario. I will have to discuss this theory over supper tonight. It's a good one" Maybe that plan was foiled when Elijah showed up.
Stitch
love2xstitch
09/07/07 at 03:35 PM
Maria
Right, the rifle had jammed and bent. So why did he take both the broken rifle AND the shotgun with him into the woods. He could only shoot himself once and it would have to be (and was) with the shotgun. So why did he take the broken and therefore useless rifle into the woods. Why not just leave it in the house?
Maria
09/07/07 at 03:38 PM
Angel71242
That's a good question!! Maybe he wanted people to think it was someone else (cuz they would recognize his rifle). But that doesn't make any sense if he was planning on killing himself from the start...which I believe he was.
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 03:50 PM
Maria
I definitely believe and agree that Elijah and Claude's visit to the house at the time they went threw an unexpected glitch in Charlie's plans. But taking the rifle with him into the woods still baffles me.
Maria
09/07/07 at 03:59 PM
Maria
Now that I think about it, did I not hear something once about there being 3 guns with Charlie's body that day?
Maria
09/07/07 at 04:02 PM
love2xstitch
I have no clue as to why Charlie took both guns. There doesn't seem to be any logic for taking a broken gun. Maybe he was hoping to get the other one working? He did have an obsession with his guns, but then why wouldn't he take all three? You have asked a very good question, yet another topic for dinner.
love2xstitch
09/07/07 at 04:11PM
LuvMyDog
I'm glad that Arthur didn't come home when Charlie expected him. I wonder if he was going to try and pin the murders on Arthur and that was the reason for both the guns? Perhaps he was planning on shooting Arthur and placing the rifle in his hands to make it look like he did the killing and then he could tell everyone that he shot Arthur with the pistol in self defense.
LuvMyDog
09/07/07 at 04:15 PM
Angel71242
Awesome theory! I That really makes sense!! Gives us something to think about!
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 04:17 PM
Angel71242
I still deep down think that he was planning on killing himself from the very beginning, but that is a whole new way of thinking about it Michelle! Very interesting....
Angel71242
09/07/07 at 05:04 PM
Maria
I also think that he meant to kill himself. Why would he hang around after killing his family. Where could he go? He could never see Arthur again or his Mother and brothers and sisters. He would either have to be on the run for the rest of his life or go to prison. Not very good choices there. And remember, he made the comment one week before he| killed his family that he wouldn't mind dying if he could take his family with him. Therefore I weigh in on the side of him waiting for Arthur to come home so he could kill him and then kill himself.
Maria
09/07/07 at 05:10 PM
Michael818
Hey guys! Yeah, I think Charlie was probably planning to die all along too. But he MIGHT have wanted to make Arthur or someone else kill him so he wouldn't be a suicide. Isn't there something in Primitive baptist belief about suicides not being able to enter Heaven?
On the other hand, Charlie might have been planning to disappear. I know it doesn't sound like much to us, but the amount of money found on him WAS rather a large amount for a poor dirt farmer to have on him in those days. He could have gotten a bus ticket to a pretty distant destination back then. And remember... it was a lot harder to track down people back then. For years there was a question as to whether or not the man gunned down outside the Biograph was in fact John Dillinger. In some circles, there is doubt to this day.
He PROBABLY meant to die, yes. But we are just left back in the same place... More questions than answers.
Michael R.
Michael818
09/07/07 at 05:14 PM
Maria
Not for me. I truly believe he sent Arthur away so he couldn't prevent him from killing everyone. And that he planned on hiding in wait for Arthur to get back from the store so he could ambush him and kill him, then kill himself. It's his words "I wouldn't mind dying if I could take my family with me" that convinces me.
Maria
09/08/07 at 05:11 AM
Maria
Why did Charlie go into the woods period? Other than Carrie and Maybell whom he killed outside the tobacco barn due to them being there when he began his shooting spree, he shot everyone else inside the house. Why did he choose to go outside, away from his family, in the bitter cold, to kill himself? He wanted to be with his family in death as he had said the week before, so why leave the majority of them inside while he goes outside and a good ways into the pine thicket and kill himself? Why not lay down on his bed, beside the fire, with his family, and lie there among them in death? WHY?
Maria
09/08/07 at 07:48 AM
LuvMyDog
That's a good question Maria. I have read so many accounts of who was murdered first and it only makes sense to me that he must have killed Carrie and Maybell last and stood in watch for Arthur for his return. Or maybe he couldn't bring himself to go inside the home after what he did and view all the carnage he created. In reading some of the post on this very subject this morning (and I will have to eat my words), I posted about Charlie perhaps wanting Arthur to shoot him and take the blame. If this was true, he wouldn't have written two suicide notes!!
LuvMyDog
09/08/07 at 08:03 AM
Maria
Way to go Michelle and Manco. I think you have begun to see the need to learn every little detail from everyone in the know back then in order to be better informed before believing this or believing that. You have to learn that each thing someone tells you about this story is important and fits together with something else. The person who tells you what they know or have heard may think it's insignificant but take my word for it, it isn't. And Manco, you brought up a very valid point about Arthur wasn't going back home straight away after his trip to buy more shells. He and Sanders were going to go hunting again before going home. Which meant Charlie would have had a very very long wait. And it was really cold in those woods that day. I hadn't even thought about that!!
Maria
09/08/07 at 11:29 AM
Michael818
Just sent a private message concerning Carrie & Maybelle, when something occurred to me.
I said that all evidence points to these two dying first. But... They were getting ready to go to their uncle's. IF Charlie saw this and got in a hurry, they MIGHT have had a chance to be dressed to go, then ran when the fray began.
Still, with all the other pieces of the puzzle, this just doesn't seem to fit. Did he shoot Marie, then go outside for Fannie, then come back in for the others, THEN go chasing after the last two? I don't think so. I just don't think he could have ever caught those girls in the time frame he had. besides, they surely would have been screaming their heads off and running as fast as they could!
No, I'm afraid this is probably one of the VERY FEW things Ms. Smith got right (as i said in that email). Don't like granting her too much with all the falsehoods and half-truths she printed, but it just fits. Kind regards to everybody!
Michael R.
Michael818
09/08/07 at 11:36 AM
Maria
I have always thought and said that Carrie and Maybell were the first ones shot that day so I'm glad to see someone else who thinks the same way!!! But I also still think that Charlie intended to kill Arthur and himself.
Maria
09/08/07 at 04:27 PM
Michael818
My question is this: If Maybell and Carrie were shot first then why didn't Fannie and Marie get concerned when they heard the sounds of gunfire so close. I understand that people would hunt at that particular time of year but this was practically in their own back yards. And question 2: Why two guns and two suicide notes....this is so baffling to me......I just want to figure this out for some reason!!
Michael R.
Michael818
09/08/07 at 04:53 PM
Maria
The tobacco barn was a good 50 feet or yards? from the house. With the doors and windows to the house closed the sound of gunshots may have been heard but muffled. It has been said that Fannie went out onto the porch and asked Charlie what was wrong and that Charlie shot her. How can anyone know what if anything Fannie said to Charlie at that time? No one there survived to tell what she said or if she said anything. It was also said that when Marie heard Fannie being shot she ran out the door and started screaming no Papa no. Here again, how could anyone know what if anything Marie said. The bottom line for me is, how do we know if the sequence of who was shot first and what was said etc. has been accurately told? We can only assume what and when and how things happened that day according to information we have with no way of knowing if this information is accurate. During the time of the shootings no one lived to tell us who was shot first, last, and in between nor what was said by anyone if anything was said at all. It's been said that the rifle jammed up. Everyone who was shot was shot with the shotgun except for 12 year old Carrie. She was shot with the rifle. That would seem to indicate that Carrie was the first person shot because if the rifle jammed that would explain why everyone else who was shot was shot with the shotgun. But Charlie obviously had both the rifle and shotgun with him at the tobacco barn because if the rifle jammed he would have to walk back to the house to get the shotgun in order to shoot Maybell if he hadn't already had it with him. Why there were 2 suicide notes I don't know.
Maria
09/08/07 at 08:18 PM
LuvMyDog
Maybe that is why he had the two guns then, he probably already knew he had problems with the rifle jamming so he took the shotgun just in case? I still think it makes more since to me that he took out the people inside the cabin before he shot Maybell and Carrie. I still believe no matter how stifling the sound of the shotgun was when you have children outside when a shot is fired you will be alarmed. But that is just my opinion.
09/08/07 at 08:50 PM
Maria
If that were true then why did Fannie go out side and gather an arm load of wood and ask Charlie what was wrong. According to her death certificate she was shot in the chest so she and Charlie were facing each other. And how would Carrie and Maybell have had time to grab their coats and caps and put them on then get past Charlie as they fled from the house? Fannie was definitely shot outside and then her body was dragged inside where her feet were close to the door. Claude remembered seeing blood on the front porch, if Charlie had shot Fannie inside the house Marie would have had time to grab the poker and brain him.
Maria
09/09/07 at 08:24 AM
Maria
Charlie did send Arthur to the store to buy shotgun shells. And yes Arthur went to Charlie first but he went to his father to get more shells but Charlie wouldn't or couldn't give him any so he "sent" him to the store. In that sense the statement that Charlie sent Arthur to the store is correct. I said from early on in this forum that I did not believe Charlie chose that particular day, Christmas Day, to kill his family. But that I believed the timing turned out to be one of "opportunity." Charlie saw a window of opportunity open when Arthur came up and asked for shells from Charlie. On December 18th Charlie Lawson had and expressed a death wish. And that death wish included his family. His own brother's son provided the world with proof of that. Something happened at some point in Charlie Lawson's life that made him prefer death over life, not only his death but the deaths of his wife and children. No one knows for certain what that "something" was nor when that "something" occurred, but rest assured it did. He planned to kill himself and take his family with him, of that I'm certain. He just hadn't come up with the right timing. But when Arthur asked for shotgun shells and Charlie had to send him away from the house to get them, I believe it was that "spur of the moment" solution to the shotgun shells that told Charlie Lawson......now is the chance I've been waiting for, and he acted out on that chance immediately and efficiently. The window of opportunity opened, the deed was done. There was no going back. The rest is history.
Maria
09/09/07 at 08:40 AM
Michael818
OK... but what of the "Christmas Surprise" statements we've heard of. Or is that just more Smithism?
Michael R.
Michael818
09/09/07 at 08:42 AM
sissy
Man y'all have been busy. OK here is my opinion on this subject. Charlie did not mean to leave Arthur behind he meant to take out his entire family, but he got caught before he could. Carrie and Maybelle were shot first, I think Fannie did indeed hear the shots, she was shot on the porch, so 1 think she was outside getting wood or- maybe even heard the shots and came out to see what was going on, not sure on that. Charlie killed her then he came in and killed the rest of the family, after they were all dead that's when he dragged Fanny in and placed pillows under there heads.
sissy
09/09/07 at 08:50 AM
Maria
The Christmas surprise statement may have been one of the many isms!!!
Maria
10/20/07 at 07:11 AM
doodlebug
Is it possible that Charlie went back into the woods to wait for Arthur? Obviously, if Arthur had returned before the neighbors got there, he would have immediately noticed something was wrong, (blood on the porch from Fannie..) Charlie could have intended to wait for Arthur and "ambush" him when he returned, thinking this was the only way he stood a chance against Arthur. The neighbors discovering the bodies first threw a wrench in those plans.
It might also explain why he spent "hours" in the woods pacing and attempted to write the notes.....his original plan was thrown off. Considering his mental state, this could have spiraled him further into a psychotic state.
This is all just a guess, I'm not a psychologist, just come from a crazy family lol
doodlebug
10/20/07 at 01:23 PM
Maria
We've discussed this theory several times in here and most of us have said that we think Charlie was indeed hiding in the woods waiting to ambush Arthur. So at least your theory on this aspect lines up with most of us in here.
Maria
10/23/07 at 02:23 PM
Michael818
Hey, I just realized something... Why didn't ELIJAH, CLAUDE, and the other one, notice blood on the porch and in the snow? Seems that much blood, plus a trail where Charlie drug Fannie inside, would have been pretty obvious. Had there been hunting that morning too, or was it just target practice? I forgot.
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 02:27 PM
Maria
I believe it was said that they did notice some blood on the front porch, I just can't remember where and who said it. I'm inclined to believe it was Claude Lawson who said it in his televised interview or someone else said he mentioned it. They had been hunting rabbit at the time of the murders but ran out of shells so they headed over to Charlie's to wish him and the family Merry Christmas. The rest is HISTORY.
Maria
10/23/07 at 02:32 PM
Michael818
Oh, OK. All the versions I'd ever heard said they tried to get in to surprise their relatives for a 'Merry Christmas," that they couldn't because something (Fannie) was blocking the door, so someone looked in the window.
I don't remember Claude saying that on camera, at least on my DVD, which was a n early one. Has it been revised?
I'll look when I get home.
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 02:36 PM
Maria
I'm not sure it is on the DVD. His entire televised interview is not on our DVD. Only a portion of it I think.
Maria
10/23/07 at 02:40 PM
Michael818
Darn! Well, let me know if he did. Claude Lawson has passed away too, right?
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 02:41 PM
Angel71242
Claude Lawson is on the Christmas Family Tragedy DVD? (Sorry - its been awhile since I've watched it) And do you know what his entire televised interview was on? Some news show or something?
Angel71242
10/23/07 at 02:45 PM
Maria
Yes I'm afraid so. But here's something that hit me just a few minutes ago. Look at the photo of the house, the front porch is not that wide at all. If Fannie was standing on the front porch with the door opened when Charlie shot her in the chest, would she have fallen forward or backwards? If backwards, being such a tall person she would probably have landed most of the way into the house. The force of the shotgun blast would have sent her flying, wouldn't it?
Maria
10/23/07 at 02:47 PM
Michael818
Yes, you're right, depending on how close Charlie was! Was she, perhaps, off the porch? Or was this, like JFK (words dripping with deep sarcasm here), a case of the "jet effect," where she fell towards the blast? It does need some looking at!
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 02:49 PM
Maria
Claude Lawson's televised interview was aired on the news one night.
Maria
10/23/07 at 03:11 PM
Maria
I just checked my DVD of the Documentary and the only part of Claude's interview in our Documentary has him telling about the accident Charlie had with the mattock. Nothing about when they found the bodies.
Maria
10/23/07 at 03:20 PM
Michael818
Wait, i SWEAR I remember him saying on camera that they had gone by to say "Christmas gift on 'em." An odd way of putting it, but I really thought he said that on there. Unless I have him mixed up with someone else. I'm gonna watch when I get home. Disturbs me that I thought I saw that, and it's not on the documentary!
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 04:06 PM
Maria
I thought Esther Johnson was the one who spoke about the "Christmas gift" saying, back then when you visited someone on Christmas Day if you hollered Christmas Gift before the other person did, they had to give you a gift. If they said it first you had to give them a gift. It was a custom back then. I like it!!!
Maria
10/23/07 at 04:10 PM
Michael818
Hey Maria... Christmas Gift".....!!!!!!!!
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 04:12 PM
Maria
YOU GOT ME Michael!!!!!!! Hey Angel. Christmas Gift!!!!!!
Maria
10/23/07 at 04:13 PM
Angel71242
Dang it)! Hey Doodlebug...Christmas Gift!!
Angel71242
10/23/07 at 04:14 PM
Michael818
Christmas Gift on EVERYBODY!!!!
Michael R.
Michael818
10/23/07 at 04:17 PM
Maria
Forget it Michael, it's only good on Christmas Day!!!!!
Maria
10/23/07 at 04:31 PM
Michael818
Ahhh, but in SOME fairy tales, EVERY day is Christmas day
Michael R.
Michael818
10/24/07 at 08:42 AM
Maria
Getting back to the blood on the front porch: if memory serves me well, what Claude Lawson said was that they saw a small amount of blood on the porch and just thought it came from the hunting trip Charlie and Arthur had gone on that morning. If this is accurate then it tells me that the force of the shotgun blast threw Fannie onto her back, through the opened front door, and into the house. At least partially into the house. That would account for the absence of bloody drag marks on the porch. Since her feet were blocking the front door then Charlie must have stepped over Fannie's body to enter the house, then drug her the rest of the way in. He then had to step over her body again when he left the house after the killings were over or he left through the back door or kitchen door, this of course is IF she was actually on the front porch porch when she was shot. Who was left to tell where Fannie was standing when she was shot? No one.
Maria
10/24/07 at 04:45 PM
doodlebug
How many gifts am I liable for now??? Jeez, the kid better not be hoping for much!
On the topic of Fannie being shot, if Charlie were outside coming toward the house, she would have fallen backward toward the house. Oddly enough, being shot won't throw you backwards unless your momentum is already carrying you in that direction. She may have fallen or stumbled into the house, but it wouldn't have knocked her into the house. Shotgun pellets would be moving fast enough to be destructive, but they don't have enough mass in relation to a human to actually propel a body.
My guess would be with Maria, that Fannie was in the doorway or very close to the doorway when she was shot, causing her to fall back into the house.
doodlebug
10/24/07 at 05:06 PM
LuvMyDog
Just curious....why does everyone think she was killed outside? Maybe she was exiting the door to see where the shots were coming from when Charlie shot Maybell and Carrie, or maybe Charlie entered the house and she was standing near the door talking to Maria, who was at the fireplace at the time. Remember, the house was very small, there wasn't much room to form a distance. I agree with doodlebug, I also don't believe the gunfire would have had enough force to throw her back, unless he was at dose range. Of course I'm not a firearm specialist, don't even have a gun but I think what we see on TV re-enactments aren't the same in real life.
LuvMyDog
10/24/07 at 05:31 PM
Michael818
Charlie would have had to have been close for the blast to throw her backwards. If he had any distance, the impact wouldn't have been strong enough to do that (I've seen someone shot up dose with a shotgun {it was an accident}, and if really close, it does carry enough force to toss you).
I just realized that the only sources I remember saying Fannie was outside were those two books, and maybe a newspaper article or two. I believe their theory was that she had stepped out to get some firewood, is that right, Maria?
Michael R.
Michael818
10/24/07 at 05:37 PM
Maria
Right? Who knows really. But it is what I've heard.
Maria
10/24/07 at 05:52 PM
Michael818
Not sure if the sound of shots would have raised a red flag with her, because there'd already been shooting going on. What do you think, Maria?
Michael R.
Michael818
10/24/07 at 05:53 PM
Maria
That close to the house might well have alarmed her.
Maria
10/24/07 at 05:55 PM
Michael818
But weren't they in the yard earlier? Or, at least, closer than the tobacco barn? My impression was that the target practice had taken place in the front or back yard. Or did Charlie have some sort of area set aside for such fun and games?
Michael R.
Michael818
10/24/07 at 06:27 PM
doodlebug
I think you're right, Michael, it was said in the books that Fannie was outside on the porch collecting firewood when she was shot. Micheal, correct me if I'm wrong, but would she not have had to have been shot at almost point blank range in order to propel her backwards?
LuvMyDog, I really can't see her stepping out because of gunshots. It's too common of a sound around the holidays, to be honest, even now, most people around here don't even notice the sound of gunfire during active hunting times, other than to note in passing that we heard it. A lot of people hunt in the woods around my house, last year, there were several hunters out on Thanksgiving day, no idea what they're actually hunting, sometimes think they just want to hear things go "boom"......
doodlebug
10/24/07 at 06:32 PM
Maria
According to her height, she was really tall, I think that when she fell backwards most of her body would have landed inside the house. Propelled or not. The porch was long but not wide.
Maria
10/24/07 at 06:42 PM
doodlebug
Good point, Maria. It seems like she would have left the door at least cracked when stepping out to the porch if she was actually going out to get wood, it's hard to carry a load and open the door at the same time!!
It just makes more sense to me to think that she was shot either right at the doorway, just inside or just outside it. The inside/outside depends on the story you believe. Did Charlie actually drag her into the house, or did he simply step over her? Don't think I've ever seen pics of the other side of the room, they would possibly show marks determining if he actually did shift the body from where it fell and how far. Depending on where she actually was, he would may have had to move the body some to get the door closed, explaining anyone's assumption at the time that he drug the body from the porch.
doodlebug
10/24/07 at 07:22 PM
LuvMyDog
I also live were there is a lot of hunting......but I think if I personally heard it that close to my house, I would indeed step outside to see if possible hunters were in my yard......being as I have dogs, cats and children! I think that Fannie may possibly have done the same, knowing she had just sent two of her smallest children off for a visit!! Just an assumption on my part, being a mother.
LuvMyDog
10/24/07 at 08:04 PM
Maria
I agree. That was close to the house. Charlie wasn't suppose to be out shooting at that time. Fannie knew Arthur had left to go to the store. The two young daughters were out there. Yep, it would have raised a red flag for me.
Maria
10/24/07 at 09:53 PM
doodlebug
The tobacco barn would most likely have been some distance from the house. Close enough to easily walk to, far enough away that it wasn't a fire hazard to the house or stable. ..all I have to go on is my own experience and the hills and hollers here make sounds do strange things. Most of my family tends to ignore gunshots on typical hunting days unless it is literally right outside our windows.
doodlebug
10/24/07 at 09:58 PM
LuvMyDog
I think if it was this close to home then it was right outside their windows! I just believe that someone in that house had to of heard something that close to home. I live in the boonies and am used to shotgun fire, but if I was to hear something close to home, it would be a natural instinct to go outside and see what the commotion is.
LuvMyDog
10/24/07 at 10:02 PM
Maria
I be durn if I would go out to see. I'd run for cover under the bed or flee out the back door. I have never held a gun or heard one go off. I am terrified of guns. I can't even be in the kitchen when someone opens a can of biscuits because of that sudden popping sound it makes. I'm serious.
Maria
10/24/07 at 11:01 PM
LuvMyDog
Maria.......what the heck! ! Surely you have heard gunfire before? Well, let me tell you.....it would be loud enough if its outside in your yard to be concerned II That is the issue I'm concerned with. I still believe if it was this close to home, anyone inside would have known this and would have been alarmed at how close the firing was.
LuvMyDog
10/24/07 at 11:08 PM
Maria
Nope, I really haven't. Except of course on T.V. And yes I would be alarmed if I heard gunfire close by my home but I would be too frightened to expose myself by going outside to look. I would say 50 Hail Marys and hide til it was over.
Maria
10/24/07 at 11:32 PM
LuvMyDog
You are too much!! I guess I always pictured you as a person that would hail all storms no matter what........that's
funny!!
LuvMyDog
10/25/07 at 06:31 AM
Maria
The only thing I've ever run from is a can of biscuits. But any other storm you'll find me eye-ball to eye-ball and toe-nail to toe-nail with.
Maria
10/25/07 at 06:38 AM
doodlebug
I spent wayyy too long on the phone last night with a friend who has had training in abnormal psychology. According to her, sparing Arthur speaks of his relationship with Charlie. In some ways, Charlie may no longer have considered Arthur as under his protection or as even being a part of the family.
Her take: Family annihilators generally feel they are "saving" their family from something. The murders usually come from possessiveness, needing to control, a sexual inadequacy or loss of a relationship. They are almost *never* spur of the moment, but carefully planned and thought out, the murderer is in complete control of his actions. By not murdering Arthur, from a psychology standpoint, it may be speaking of his feelings toward Arthur. He may not have felt that he had a need to save Arthur, or protect him. He may not have felt that Arthur deserved to be "saved". If he felt that he couldn't control Arthur, that could tie back to why he was spared in the end.
According to most of her studies, what has been said about Charlie fits the profile of an annihilator perfectly. He was highly regarded, loved his family, seen as being devoted to his family, they also tend to perceive their family as being perfect and whatever sets them off is destroying that perfection. If I've majorly messed up anything, it's purely my fault, was taking notes with a sharpie very late last night, loll
doodlebug
10/25/07 at 07:11 AM
Maria
It's totally screwed up, hope you have a great long distance plan...JUST KIDDING!!!!! Though I'm not a psychologist that person's assessment of Charlie Lawson sounds spot on to me. That part about why he didn't kill Arthur sounds really good. If it weren't for the fact that I believe he really and truly meant to ambush and kill him. I'm going to go with the theory that he saw his family as being perfect and when something such as Marie getting pregnant or Marie exposing him for getting her pregnant would dispel that image he had presented to the community of his perfect family and make him seem to blame and that was the catalyst that made him do what he did.
Maria
10/25/07 at 07:13 AM
doodlebug
Something else I wanted to add....she kept saying that something about posing the bodies or the way they were posed, something about it (it was really really late..) kept bothering her. She wanted to check on it before really commenting on it....
doodlebug
10/25/07 at 10:15 AM
LuvMyDog
I just read this article on Clews The Historic True Crime Blog, and thought it applied to doodlebug's last post.
"Like John List decades later, Charlie Lawson clearly planned for days or weeks. He took the whole clan to town ten days before Christmas to buy new clothes -- outfits that they'd be buried in - the photos where in newspapers across the region. After his awful deeds, Lawson, like List, collected them, posed some of them.
To me the cases were very similar. Charlie Lawson was well regarded, a "good man," someone who was honest and did kind deeds for his neighbors. None of the "usual" explanations for family annihilators appear in this case. Lawson did not seem to suffer from religious delusion or any delusion at all. He in fact objected to his family attending church.
LuvMyDog
10/25/07 at 12:56 PM
Angel71242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
The only thing I've ever run from is a can of biscuits. But any other storm you'll find me eye-ball to
eye-ball and toe-nail to toe-nail with.
End quote.
Can of biscuits huh...good to know...
Angel71242
10/25/07 at 03:44 PM
Maria
I've always heard the rifle he shot Carrie with jammed. That's why I think she was the first person to be killed. All of the others who were shot..Fannie, Marie, and Maybell were shot with the shotgun as well as Charlie himself. The other three were bludgeoned to death.
Maria
10/25/07 at 05:25 PM
Michael818
Back to the sound of shots. That barn where Carrie and Maybelle were killed was some distance from the house from all I've heard, including someone who took a pic in the mid eighties. The shots which killed them, therefore, would not have been "right outside their windows." Inside the house, from that distance, the shot sounds could have come from any direction. I think she was going out for wood, and got popped either just outside the door, or in the door frame. If Charlie were still some distance from the house, impact would have had a minimal effect on the trajectory of her fall. But if he had gotten so close that he was right on top of her, at point blank range, impact could have thrown her a few feet.
When my cousin was accidentally shot, the 12 gauge was just a foot, no more from him, and he was lifted in the air and thrown back from the fence. The boy was lucky. Though his right arm is useless, he IS alive! Fannie, whether hit full in the chest, or back would not have stood much of a chance.
Michael R.
Michael818
10/25/07 at 10:31 PM
doodlebug
Michael, I've been all over the GIS trying to pin point appx where the tobacco barns were. Unfortunately, the only basis I have to go on with relation to where buildings were is the map in the book...it's completely off. If we could determine whether or not Elijah Lawson's home were still standing that would help determine the locations of the barns by current standards.
I can tell you this: Normally, a tobacco barn would have been distance from the house, they are a massive fire hazard. But, they would have also generally had several large hardwood trees around them to provide shade during the summer months, if they were in an open area. I'm sure many of you know exactly how hot and dirty putting up tobacco can be and any relief from the sun was welcome.
doodlebug
10/25/07 at 11:09 PM
LuvMyDog
Tobacco barn or not, I know enough about hunting to know where a sound is close or off in a distance, you get used to the sounds if you are familiar with gunfire!! I am sure that Fannie was used to the sound of gunfire and would be alarmed with the sound being this close to her house. This is just my opinion.
LuvMyDog
10/25/07 at 11:26 PM
doodlebug
That's why I'm trying to figure out just how far away the barn was....most of the ones I've ever worked in were far enough away from the house that the sounds of the shots wouldn't have seemed very close to the house itself.
doodlebug
10/26/07 at 10:00 AM
Angel71242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaels818
That barn where Carrie and Maybelle were killed was some distance from the house from all I've heard, including someone who took a pic in the mid eighties.
End Quote:
THAT'S what I want to see!!! I KNOW that some of the people who toured that place for the fifty year anniversary took pictures!!!!! Please Please come forward people and post your pictures!!!!!!!!
Angel71242
10/26/07 at 10:04 AM
Angel71242
As for why Fannie stepped out on the porch or didn't step out on the porch or whether the gun shot was alarmingly close or not alarmingly close - my goodness - ya'll are just going back and forth on that one!! Agree to disagree and lets ponder more meaningful questions!!
Angel71242
11/17/07 at 04:48 PM
Michael818
Agreed. But, in another recent thread, Maria revealed that the tobacco barn was NOT so close to the house after all. Thus, the shots would probably not have been so alarming to Fannie. Since they were so far behind the house, they were probably faint, if she heard them at all, over the sounds of life in the house that day.
Michael818
11/17/07 at 06:22 PM
Maria
Actually it was never said she heard the shots. It was said that Fannie was outside on the porch and when she saw Charlie running towards her with the shotgun she said to him, "Charlie what's wrong" and without a word he shot her dead. But here again, who survived the killings that could have told anyone what Fannie said? I know it was previously posted in here about Fannie hearing the shots but that isn't correct. Other people, (neighbors) claimed to have heard the shots so it was probably assumed that if they did, so did Fannie.
Maria
11/17/07 at 09:43 PM
LuvMyDog
I believe that Fannie heard the shots like every one else and maybe that is why she went outside? Maybe she didn't go outside to get wood, but was concerned about the shots, since Maybell and Carrie had just left to go outside? (This is a mother's point of view!)
LuvMyDog
11/17/07 at 09:52 PM
Maria
I guess that's possible. Mothers tend to sense, in fact to know, when their child or in this case children are in danger. She may very well have, in a supernatural sort of way, felt the shots that ended the life of two of her daughters. Or some unreasonable fear may have grabbed her soul in the moment of their deaths. I think you just hit on a great idea Michelle.
Maria
01/16/08 at 08:31 PM
laurie1125
After the reality set in, I wonder what Arthur was thinking knowing his father was waiting for him to come home and kill him as well.
laurie1125
01/17/08 at 07:20 AM
Maria
Good question Laurie. Probably a whole lot of fear and anger. But truth be told he probably was never able to believe his own father wanted to kill him or that it was even his father who killed his mother, brothers and sisters. He would have clung to a belief that it was someone else that killed them. At times like that the mind has to protect itself and it will grab at anything to do just that.
Maria
