Post by Brian on Jun 6, 2009 20:02:22 GMT -5
01/17/07 at 10:48 AM
sissy
Maria's last thread also brings up the question of why Charlie waited about four hours to kill himself. I was discussing this with a friend and we agreed, that Charlie was waiting in the woods to ambush Arthur as he was coming back from town. I don't think he ever meant to leave Arthur alive. Charlie knew that if anyone could stop him from killing his family Arthur could. So he killed the others and was hiding. But the crowd of people showed up and Arthur did not come by him so Charlie got scared and killed himself.
sissy
01/17/07 at 11:19 AM
Maria
I tend to agree with you Sissy on your assessment here. Just our opinions here you know,
Maria
01/17/07 at 12:42 PM
jackhammer
Interesting thought on the matter. I never thought about it much, but that makes more sense than any other reason than I can think of.
Does anyone know how Charlie was dressed when he was found? I know in the film, he's depicted with a white dress shirt and be. Being Christmas day, with snow on the ground, I think that sitting outside for four hours dressed like that would be a little hard to do. Or maybe he was waiting in the house or one of the outbuildings for a while, and then went out into the pines.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons.
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
01/17/07 at 12:48 PM
Maria
Hi Hackhammer,
Since Charlie hod been out shooting early that morning I'm assuming he was probably dressed in coveralls with possibly a thick flannel shirt on and long Johns. I know that it's been said that the sheriff found two notes, $61.00 in cash and a pencil stub and an advertisement for baby furniture in the pockets of his black overcoat.
Maria
01/17/07 at 01:03 PM
jackhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
Hi Jackhammer.
Since Charlie had been out shooting early that morning I'm assuming he was probably dressed in coveralls with possibly a thick flannel shirt on and long Johns. I know that it's been said that the sheriff found two notes, $61.00 in cash and a pencil stub and an advertisement for baby furniture in the pockets of his black overcoat.
Maria
I had forgotten about the fact that the sheriff found those items in his overcoat pocket. Good catch, Maria. Also, the advertisement for baby furniture in his pocket could be a clue as well, and I'm sure that it's been mulled over about the fact that there may be two babies in the house soon. I would guess that in a house where there were seven children born, the same baby crib was probably used over and over. However, with a possibility of a second baby coming along when there was a 4 month old already using the crib, the purchase of a second crib might be warranted.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
01/17/07 at 01:10 PM
My goodness. It is so interesting to peel back the layers of this story. You all keep my interest going!
Ladebug
01/17/07 at 01:26 PM
sissy
I've got a question about the clock. Did the shot actually stop the dock? I had read somewhere it was common for people to stop the dock in the room when someone died. So did it stop when Marie was killed or did somebody stop it when they found them, or could Charlie himself stopped the clock?
sissy
01/17/07 at 01:49 PM
Maria
YEAH Sissy...wonderful question. I've heard of course as many others have that the impact from the shotgun blast caused the clock to stop. But that of course might not be so. Arthur didn't stop the clock that's for sure so if anyone stopped it intentionally then it had to be Charlie. Of course the question then arises as to why was there no blood on the clock since Charlie's hands would surely be covered in blood and as such he would have left his blood on the clock. But if he is the one who stopped the clock then perhaps he wiped his hands on his coat or a hankerchief or maybe there was no blood on what ever port of his hands and fingers that came in contact with the clock. If Charlie did stop the clock himself then he probably stopped it after he finished the last of the killings and body preparations which would mean that Marie wasn't shot at 1:25 as the time it showed. Arthur was said to have opened the clock door and re-start the clock but it has also been stated that it wouldn't start again. If so then it was stopped by the shotgun blast. We must not rely solely on information gathered from one source...say the book/books written about it or solely the documentary or solely the newspaper accounts, etc. That is why I enjoyed researching this story because I was able to gather information from many different sources and as such many contradictions surround what actually happened and so I continually go over and over my sources as well as new sources that continue to come my way and try to fit the pieces together as best I can. One of the things that fascinates me about all of this is that almost every question answered produces yet another question and the search goes on.
Maria
01/17/07 at 02:21 PM
cephus
Never thought of Charlie stopping the clock makes sense does anyone know where clock is now
cephus
01/18/07 at 12:55 AM
ecalhoun
Quote:
Originally Posted by sissy
Maria's last thread also brings up the question of why Charlie waited about four hours to kill himself. I was discussing this with a friend and we agreed, that Charlie was waiting in the woods to ambush Arthur as he was coming back from town. I don't think he ever meant to leave Arthur alive. Charlie knew that if anyone could stop him from killing his family Arthur could. So he killed the others and was hiding. But the crowd of people showed up and Arthur did not come by him so Charlie got scared and killed himself.
I think there are 2 possible explanations of why Charlie might have wanted to let Arthur live. Either might be true, or a little of both, or you could be right. We'll never know, of course. But here are two ideas:
1) Charlie did want his family name to live on. Ancestors and descendants have always been very important to southerners.
2) When Arthur stood up to Charlie, it proved that he could take care of himself in the world, he was a grown man and Charlie wasn't responsible for him. If one of the reasons that Charlie killed his family was because, in his mind, he couldn't meet his obligation to take care of his dependent women and children, perhaps he considered that Arthur was different from the rest. Perhaps he felt that Arthur was no longer his burden.
Again, we'll never know for sure, but both ideas fit in with the times. But one last point, it's ironic to me that women were considered dependent on the man of the house, considering how much of the work was done by women. They were generally expected to do as much work outside, as well as handle all of the cooking and cleaning. In several households, the women told us how they got up earlier than the men, who would also nap in the afternoon while they cleaned up.
Break of Oawn Productions
"Bringing Light to the Darkest Night"
ecalhoun
sissy
Maria's last thread also brings up the question of why Charlie waited about four hours to kill himself. I was discussing this with a friend and we agreed, that Charlie was waiting in the woods to ambush Arthur as he was coming back from town. I don't think he ever meant to leave Arthur alive. Charlie knew that if anyone could stop him from killing his family Arthur could. So he killed the others and was hiding. But the crowd of people showed up and Arthur did not come by him so Charlie got scared and killed himself.
sissy
01/17/07 at 11:19 AM
Maria
I tend to agree with you Sissy on your assessment here. Just our opinions here you know,
Maria
01/17/07 at 12:42 PM
jackhammer
Interesting thought on the matter. I never thought about it much, but that makes more sense than any other reason than I can think of.
Does anyone know how Charlie was dressed when he was found? I know in the film, he's depicted with a white dress shirt and be. Being Christmas day, with snow on the ground, I think that sitting outside for four hours dressed like that would be a little hard to do. Or maybe he was waiting in the house or one of the outbuildings for a while, and then went out into the pines.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons.
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
01/17/07 at 12:48 PM
Maria
Hi Hackhammer,
Since Charlie hod been out shooting early that morning I'm assuming he was probably dressed in coveralls with possibly a thick flannel shirt on and long Johns. I know that it's been said that the sheriff found two notes, $61.00 in cash and a pencil stub and an advertisement for baby furniture in the pockets of his black overcoat.
Maria
01/17/07 at 01:03 PM
jackhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
Hi Jackhammer.
Since Charlie had been out shooting early that morning I'm assuming he was probably dressed in coveralls with possibly a thick flannel shirt on and long Johns. I know that it's been said that the sheriff found two notes, $61.00 in cash and a pencil stub and an advertisement for baby furniture in the pockets of his black overcoat.
Maria
I had forgotten about the fact that the sheriff found those items in his overcoat pocket. Good catch, Maria. Also, the advertisement for baby furniture in his pocket could be a clue as well, and I'm sure that it's been mulled over about the fact that there may be two babies in the house soon. I would guess that in a house where there were seven children born, the same baby crib was probably used over and over. However, with a possibility of a second baby coming along when there was a 4 month old already using the crib, the purchase of a second crib might be warranted.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
01/17/07 at 01:10 PM
My goodness. It is so interesting to peel back the layers of this story. You all keep my interest going!
Ladebug
01/17/07 at 01:26 PM
sissy
I've got a question about the clock. Did the shot actually stop the dock? I had read somewhere it was common for people to stop the dock in the room when someone died. So did it stop when Marie was killed or did somebody stop it when they found them, or could Charlie himself stopped the clock?
sissy
01/17/07 at 01:49 PM
Maria
YEAH Sissy...wonderful question. I've heard of course as many others have that the impact from the shotgun blast caused the clock to stop. But that of course might not be so. Arthur didn't stop the clock that's for sure so if anyone stopped it intentionally then it had to be Charlie. Of course the question then arises as to why was there no blood on the clock since Charlie's hands would surely be covered in blood and as such he would have left his blood on the clock. But if he is the one who stopped the clock then perhaps he wiped his hands on his coat or a hankerchief or maybe there was no blood on what ever port of his hands and fingers that came in contact with the clock. If Charlie did stop the clock himself then he probably stopped it after he finished the last of the killings and body preparations which would mean that Marie wasn't shot at 1:25 as the time it showed. Arthur was said to have opened the clock door and re-start the clock but it has also been stated that it wouldn't start again. If so then it was stopped by the shotgun blast. We must not rely solely on information gathered from one source...say the book/books written about it or solely the documentary or solely the newspaper accounts, etc. That is why I enjoyed researching this story because I was able to gather information from many different sources and as such many contradictions surround what actually happened and so I continually go over and over my sources as well as new sources that continue to come my way and try to fit the pieces together as best I can. One of the things that fascinates me about all of this is that almost every question answered produces yet another question and the search goes on.
Maria
01/17/07 at 02:21 PM
cephus
Never thought of Charlie stopping the clock makes sense does anyone know where clock is now
cephus
01/18/07 at 12:55 AM
ecalhoun
Quote:
Originally Posted by sissy
Maria's last thread also brings up the question of why Charlie waited about four hours to kill himself. I was discussing this with a friend and we agreed, that Charlie was waiting in the woods to ambush Arthur as he was coming back from town. I don't think he ever meant to leave Arthur alive. Charlie knew that if anyone could stop him from killing his family Arthur could. So he killed the others and was hiding. But the crowd of people showed up and Arthur did not come by him so Charlie got scared and killed himself.
I think there are 2 possible explanations of why Charlie might have wanted to let Arthur live. Either might be true, or a little of both, or you could be right. We'll never know, of course. But here are two ideas:
1) Charlie did want his family name to live on. Ancestors and descendants have always been very important to southerners.
2) When Arthur stood up to Charlie, it proved that he could take care of himself in the world, he was a grown man and Charlie wasn't responsible for him. If one of the reasons that Charlie killed his family was because, in his mind, he couldn't meet his obligation to take care of his dependent women and children, perhaps he considered that Arthur was different from the rest. Perhaps he felt that Arthur was no longer his burden.
Again, we'll never know for sure, but both ideas fit in with the times. But one last point, it's ironic to me that women were considered dependent on the man of the house, considering how much of the work was done by women. They were generally expected to do as much work outside, as well as handle all of the cooking and cleaning. In several households, the women told us how they got up earlier than the men, who would also nap in the afternoon while they cleaned up.
Break of Oawn Productions
"Bringing Light to the Darkest Night"
ecalhoun
