Post by Brian on Jun 7, 2009 16:58:56 GMT -5
01/18/07 at 10:12 AM
Maria
I'm curious about the pillows that we've all heard that Charlie Lawson put under the children's heads after he killed them. We know he used stones for pillows rather than the actual pillows under the heads of Carrie and Maybell. the two children that he killed at the barn. But what about Fannie and Marie? Did he put a pillow under their heads. In the photo of the murder scene inside the cabin you see only two pillows on the floor. These two pillows have blood on them. If you look at Charlie and Fannie's bed In the photo you see that their two pillows were still on the bed so we know they weren't used. That leaves James and Raymond. So I assume he put pillows under the younger children's heads but not under his wife's head or his oldest child Marie's head. Why not. Since one of the little boys was hiding behind the stove In the kitchen when his family was being slaughtered does this mean that he was killed In the kitchen then drug into the other room with the rest of them or was he taken from the kitchen directly Into the other room and killed there?
Maria
01/18/07 at 10:20 AM
jackhammer
Interesting question. Maria. I can't remember if I read about which family members had the two pillows. As you said, it could have been the small children, or it could have been the four female members of the family. Obviously, from the photo, he had more pillows to use if he'd wanted to.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
01/18/07 at 11:57 AM
sissy
It is hard to say where the little boy was killed. My opinion is that Charlie killed them where he found them. This particular question is hard for me to even think about having a little boy myself. It Just breaks my heart to think of those little children, why would he take time to put pillows under part of them and not all?
sissy
01/22/07 at 01:55 AM
Dramafem
About the whole pillow thing......is it possible that Charlie may have gotten scared before he had a chance to put a pillow under everyone's heads? Or maybe it was a sense of some kind of status? Those who he put pillows under their heads, were the ones that he felt guilty about? Hmmmmm
Dramafem
01/22/07 at 10:04 AM
ladebug
Oh goodness, had not thought about that but chances are from statistics if he molested the older one why not the 12 year old as well. This is a question for our experts.
ladebug
01/22/07 at 10:17 AM
Maria
I'm really not sure I want to go there. No mention has ever been made to my knowledge of Charlie messing with 12 year old Carrie or any of the others. I don't understand the leap from pillows under some but not all heads to maybe Charlie molested Carrie as well. Some caution needs to be taken with this.
Maria
01/22/07 at 12:35 PM
Matt32
The pillows were described to us by an expert in domestic violence homicides as a classic example of 'undoing', which isn't precisely the same as Charlie denying he did it through actions he barely understood, it's common in these sort of murders for the killer to 'lay his victims to rest as if they were asleep', which to me argues that charlie was the killer, but gives No hint of meaning as to underlying motive For the killings, it Just says that he cared about those he killed and wanted them to be "as comfortable as they could be for a very long time'. It's been described as 'a bizarre ritual' but it's bizarre only to those unfamiliar with these type murders, for those familiar with this sort of crime, it follows a well established pattern that further indicts Charlie, since no one else was close enough to the victims to feel
compelled to make them 'comfortable' in death.
i'd have to agree with Maria here that we need to be very careful in making assumptions like the one about Carrie's potential molestation. Remember, it's been a huge bone of contention whether charlie ever molested Marie, and there's been rumors, theories, and whispered stories for 77yrs on that subject. Part of what angered so many about the book was that by not interviewing dissenting viewpoints from those at least as dose to the story as Stella, there was irreparable damage done to the claim that charlie Had molested marie, that*s the problem with shoddy investigatory skills, even if the book were right and charlie Had molested Marie, by not nailing that claim down with more than one source, it leaves more than a shred of doubt about his guilt on that particular issue, which is inexcusable if Untrue, but even worse if it Is true, because then the unimaginable suffering Marie went through is called into Question, and considering how terrible her pain must have been, if she had been molested, it's particularly horrible to expose her pain to our doubt at the expense of protecting a shred of Charlie's reputation as a 'fine decent man" who 'would never do something like that', even though we 'know' he killed 8 people on Christmas day. that's why we've been so very careful about any of the claims made, by not corroborating this (which is nearly impossible), we expose doubt to it, and i don't feel like Questioning the children's pain at the expense of propping up the reputation of a mass murderer, it might be safer to assume the worst in order to more fully sympathize with the suffering of the children, but considering how many of Charlie's family remains, making claims we can't prove only emboldens those who'd prefer to refuse to face the horrid facts of what we know charlie Did do by claiming that our accusations are unsubstantiated.
this cuts to the core of so much that was so vital to us in the way we presented this story and i hope that unless we ever get 'proof of his guilt there, we can refrain from advancing theories that can only cause more pain for the living without advancing our understanding of what the children went through, this isn't a rebuke to anyone. Just a cautious reminder that we're discussing something that still has a powerful effect on many still living people and everything we say Will be held against us at some time or another.
many can do what no One can-
together, we Can beat domestic violence-
Matt32
01/24/07 at 09:55 AM
Dramafem
Maybe I said it wrong, I didnt mean status as in those who he molested...but maybe as in those were the ones he felt most guilty about killing? No, the thought about he molesting the others never crossed my mind!
Dramafem
Maria
I'm curious about the pillows that we've all heard that Charlie Lawson put under the children's heads after he killed them. We know he used stones for pillows rather than the actual pillows under the heads of Carrie and Maybell. the two children that he killed at the barn. But what about Fannie and Marie? Did he put a pillow under their heads. In the photo of the murder scene inside the cabin you see only two pillows on the floor. These two pillows have blood on them. If you look at Charlie and Fannie's bed In the photo you see that their two pillows were still on the bed so we know they weren't used. That leaves James and Raymond. So I assume he put pillows under the younger children's heads but not under his wife's head or his oldest child Marie's head. Why not. Since one of the little boys was hiding behind the stove In the kitchen when his family was being slaughtered does this mean that he was killed In the kitchen then drug into the other room with the rest of them or was he taken from the kitchen directly Into the other room and killed there?
Maria
01/18/07 at 10:20 AM
jackhammer
Interesting question. Maria. I can't remember if I read about which family members had the two pillows. As you said, it could have been the small children, or it could have been the four female members of the family. Obviously, from the photo, he had more pillows to use if he'd wanted to.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
01/18/07 at 11:57 AM
sissy
It is hard to say where the little boy was killed. My opinion is that Charlie killed them where he found them. This particular question is hard for me to even think about having a little boy myself. It Just breaks my heart to think of those little children, why would he take time to put pillows under part of them and not all?
sissy
01/22/07 at 01:55 AM
Dramafem
About the whole pillow thing......is it possible that Charlie may have gotten scared before he had a chance to put a pillow under everyone's heads? Or maybe it was a sense of some kind of status? Those who he put pillows under their heads, were the ones that he felt guilty about? Hmmmmm
Dramafem
01/22/07 at 10:04 AM
ladebug
Oh goodness, had not thought about that but chances are from statistics if he molested the older one why not the 12 year old as well. This is a question for our experts.
ladebug
01/22/07 at 10:17 AM
Maria
I'm really not sure I want to go there. No mention has ever been made to my knowledge of Charlie messing with 12 year old Carrie or any of the others. I don't understand the leap from pillows under some but not all heads to maybe Charlie molested Carrie as well. Some caution needs to be taken with this.
Maria
01/22/07 at 12:35 PM
Matt32
The pillows were described to us by an expert in domestic violence homicides as a classic example of 'undoing', which isn't precisely the same as Charlie denying he did it through actions he barely understood, it's common in these sort of murders for the killer to 'lay his victims to rest as if they were asleep', which to me argues that charlie was the killer, but gives No hint of meaning as to underlying motive For the killings, it Just says that he cared about those he killed and wanted them to be "as comfortable as they could be for a very long time'. It's been described as 'a bizarre ritual' but it's bizarre only to those unfamiliar with these type murders, for those familiar with this sort of crime, it follows a well established pattern that further indicts Charlie, since no one else was close enough to the victims to feel
compelled to make them 'comfortable' in death.
i'd have to agree with Maria here that we need to be very careful in making assumptions like the one about Carrie's potential molestation. Remember, it's been a huge bone of contention whether charlie ever molested Marie, and there's been rumors, theories, and whispered stories for 77yrs on that subject. Part of what angered so many about the book was that by not interviewing dissenting viewpoints from those at least as dose to the story as Stella, there was irreparable damage done to the claim that charlie Had molested marie, that*s the problem with shoddy investigatory skills, even if the book were right and charlie Had molested Marie, by not nailing that claim down with more than one source, it leaves more than a shred of doubt about his guilt on that particular issue, which is inexcusable if Untrue, but even worse if it Is true, because then the unimaginable suffering Marie went through is called into Question, and considering how terrible her pain must have been, if she had been molested, it's particularly horrible to expose her pain to our doubt at the expense of protecting a shred of Charlie's reputation as a 'fine decent man" who 'would never do something like that', even though we 'know' he killed 8 people on Christmas day. that's why we've been so very careful about any of the claims made, by not corroborating this (which is nearly impossible), we expose doubt to it, and i don't feel like Questioning the children's pain at the expense of propping up the reputation of a mass murderer, it might be safer to assume the worst in order to more fully sympathize with the suffering of the children, but considering how many of Charlie's family remains, making claims we can't prove only emboldens those who'd prefer to refuse to face the horrid facts of what we know charlie Did do by claiming that our accusations are unsubstantiated.
this cuts to the core of so much that was so vital to us in the way we presented this story and i hope that unless we ever get 'proof of his guilt there, we can refrain from advancing theories that can only cause more pain for the living without advancing our understanding of what the children went through, this isn't a rebuke to anyone. Just a cautious reminder that we're discussing something that still has a powerful effect on many still living people and everything we say Will be held against us at some time or another.
many can do what no One can-
together, we Can beat domestic violence-
Matt32
01/24/07 at 09:55 AM
Dramafem
Maybe I said it wrong, I didnt mean status as in those who he molested...but maybe as in those were the ones he felt most guilty about killing? No, the thought about he molesting the others never crossed my mind!
Dramafem