Post by Brian on Jun 26, 2009 21:40:49 GMT -5
02/11/07 at 10:08 AM
jackhammer
Comments moved from another (Family portrait) thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sissy
Do you think that when Charlie took his whole family to have there picture made he was planning to kill them? Or was the picture a Christmas present for Fannie?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassygirl24
No one in the family knew they were going to be kill my their own father and husband.
Sassygirl24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
You're right Sassygirl, I'm sure Fannie nor the children knew they were going to be killed by Charlie. But I believe the question asked by Sissy was: Do we believe Charlie knew he was going to kill them. Did he already have such a plan in his mind at that time. No one can know with absolute certainty what's in another person's mind or heart at any given time, but a person's actions prior to an incident can be a strong indicator of what he was thinking and planning. Especially when those actions before hand are un-characteristic of that person as I've been told it was of Charlie Lawson. Maria
I think that there are indicators that back-up each theory. If we put them down in two lists, perhaps the circumstantial evidence is heavier on one side.
Showing pre-meditation
Buying the family new clothes
Having a large some of money (for the time) in his pocket
Sending Arthur off to the store
The portrait itself (sissy)
Pacing, wringing hands, "Oh, God...what am I going to do?" (see Maria's post below)
Making sure that his guns were in good repair
Timing the deaths to coincide with the Christmas school holiday to ensure all the children would be home.
Showing NO pre-meditation
Unfinished "suicide" note
Not killing his oldest son (although this could go in either column)
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons.
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 10:46 AM
Maria
Hi Jackhammer,
What a great idea of the for and against opinions of whether people believe Charlie planned the murders or not Another thing to add to the premeditated column is that I've heard from several people that three weeks before the murders Charlie Lawson was said to have had an episode several times where he was seen and heard pacing, wringing his hands, and crying "oh God what am I going to do...what am I going to do?" When a person acts like that (in this case Charlie Lawson) it tells me that something really bad has happened in their life and the question "what am I going to do" means he was searching for a way to deal with what ever it was that was disturbing him so much. He had to devise a plan to solve his problem and that plan, in my opinion, ended up being murder and suicide.
02/11/07 at 10:50 AM
sissy
The portrait itself could be a sign of premeditation. The picture seemed to say this is my family and I can do what I want to with them.
sissy
02/11/07 at 11:01 AM
jackhammer
As new ideas or indicators come up, I'll just add them to the initial post here.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 11:06 AM
Maria
Everytime I look at that photo I am struck by the "smug" expression on Charlie's face. (At least I percieve it as smug) I have a strong feeling that he's thinking...humph, I know something no one else does. I am "the superior one in this family". And soon I will show everyone that it is I who has the upper hand. I am the man in this family who makes the ultimate decisions regarding my family and I will go down in history as being so. And soon enough you will know that this is true and never will anyone be able to forget my name and who I was. I will show every last one of you.
Maria
02/11/07 at 11:25 AM
jackhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
Everytime I look at that photo I am struck by the "smug" expression on Charlie's face. (At least I perdeve it as smug) I have a strong feeling that he's thinking...humph, I know something no one else does. I am "the superior one in this family". And soon I will show everyone that it is I who has the upper hand. I am the man in this family who makes the ultimate decisions regarding my family and I will go down in history as being so. And soon enough you will know that this is true and never will anyone be able to forget my name and who I was. I will show every last one of you.
Seeing that I've never seen any other picture of Charlie, other than the family portrait, I can't compare how he might look different or smug on the family one. I blew it up a little and lightened it up some to get a better look. He does have that raised eyebrow look to him.
Picture link here
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 11:34 AM
Maria
In addition to the raised eyebrow, the tilt of his head made him look smug to me.
Maria
02/11/07 at 11:37 AM
jackhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
In addition to the raised eyebrow, the tilt of his head made him look smug to me.
Maria
Yeah, I see what you're saying, Maria. Also, on this lightened version of the picture, it looks almost like Charlie has a moustache. It may just be shadows, but it gives the appearance of a moustache.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 11:58AM
jackhammer
I think that making sure that his guns were in good repair (almost obsessive about it) prior to the murders was indicative of pre-meditation as well.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 12:51 PM
tarheel
jackhammer...
your feelings about Charlie and keeping his gun in good condition does not have anything to do with premeditation!
if you were a farmer back then, you kept your guns is good condition for many reasons!
for protection or for use in hunting meat for the winter!
after all ,this was 1929 and the depression had hit most families very hard!
having a good working firearm may have been the difference of being able to feed your family during the winter or all of them going hungry!
and i'm sure they were a proud family too and taking "handouts" was not part of their lifestyle!
also.many folks who own guns today really do not worry that much about their condition all the time because they are able to store them in dosets.or rooms in a house where the temperature does not change that drastic from day to day and therefore worryiong about moisture damging a firearm does not even come into play in our high tech society today!
these are just my thoughts because i remember my grandfather and my dad always cleaned their guns after hunting and would on several occasion mention the change of weather conditions that might cause moisture to build up and ruin the barrels of a rifle or shotgun!
tarheel
02/11/07 at 12:56 PM
Maria
I doubt if most people back then jumped up in the middle of the night to check on their guns. It was only in the last three weeks prior to the murders that his preoccupation with his guns was an aboration from his usual behavior regarding his guns as a number of people reported. That's why I think it points to something more.
Maria
02/11/07 at 01:01PM
jackhammer
Of course you are quite right about the guns, tarheel. Back in those days, you had to take proper care of all of your tools and keep them in the best shape that you could. There was no driving down to WalMart or Home Depot to get new ones like we might do today.
I was thinking more about something I read, either here or in the book "the Meaning of Our Tears". But it seemed like Charlie was getting up in the middle of the night to check on his guns, etc. Not a normal thing to do, in my opinion. Maybe I'm mis-remembering this.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 01:04 PM
Maria
No Jackhammer, you are not mis-remembering. Gotta love the new word. I was told by a number of different people, mostly family members, about his sudden obsession with his guns. And I too read about that in the book. It was this sudden and "OBSESSIVE" part of it that raised a red flag for me.
Maria
02/11/07 at 08:05 PM
sissy
In my opinion his obsession with his gun was a sign of premeditation. My grandfather was a farmer back then and he was not obsessed with his guns. They did have to kill a lot of what they ate. But I just don't think anybody in their right mind is gonna jump up in the middle of the night to check on his guns. But again this is only my opinion.
sissy
02/11/07 at 08:41PM
tarheel
well...i thought that we were here to express opinions and what we thought may have happened...
dang.if you gonna jump down someones throat just because their opinion differs from yours, then this is not a forum...it's a declaration of what really happened and not anyone of you are well informed enough to make that a fact!!!
and...besides that i have much better things to tune in here every 15 minutes to see what THEY have to say about my recent POST!
SO...FYI, this is my last post in here
warm regards,
tarheel
02/12/07 at 01:15 PM
ecalhoun
Just a quick note against premeditation which has always bothered me:
Charlie, and the rest of the family, were expecting people to come over and visit, including Fannie's parents, who were supposed to be there on that day, but had to turn around because of the snow. Also, his brother was expecting him to go hunting with him later. Maybe it was premeditated, but it seems like a pretty bad plan to pick one of the most busy days of the year for visiting, and it was fate that gave him the opportunity.
Break of Dawn Productions
"Bringing Light to the Darkest Night"
ecalhoun
02/12/07 at 02:31 PM
Maria
Premeditated doesn't mean on a particular day, in this case, Christmas Day. I just believe he already had his decision planned firmly in his mind to kill everyone. The bad weather and then Arthur leaving the house that day provided an opportunity for him to do it that day. The perfect opportunity presented itself and Charlie used it to carry out his plans. Mind you, this is what I "think" happened.
Maria
02/16/07 at 08:43 AM
Maria
I've been thinking some more about why the family was killed on Christmas Day. For me this is another factor that fits in with it being premeditated because I think that he chose the Christmas Holidays (though not necessarily the exact day of Christmas) to do this because school was always out of session over the Christmas Holidays, usually for a week. During the times that school was in session some of the children (at least Marie, Carrie, and Maybell) left home early in the morning for school and didn't get home until late afternoon. Of course all of this is possible only if Charlie Lawson did indeed commit these murders and since no absolute hold-up-in-a- court-of-law proof exists then this is conjecture. My opinions are based on an "if he did it" basis. If what I've been told by at least 5 different family members is true (and I have no reason to believe they lied) that Charlie found out only 2 to 3 weeks before he killed his family that Marie had told her mother that she was pregnant by him then that explains the time frame for me. If Marie was indeed pregnant at that time it would not have been much longer until she started showing "enough" for there to be no doubt she was pregnant and therefore he needed to do something about it in the very near future. If his solution for the problem was carried out before her pregnancy could no longer be in doubt then no one could ever prove beyond a doubt that she was indeed pregnant, it would always remain heresay. And with no proof possible the truth would be buried forever.
Maria
02/16/07 at 09:46 AM
jackhammer
I think that your scenario is spot on, Maria. I can't imagine the pressure that he may have been under IF she was pregnant. And every day, the clock was ticking (no pun intended). Everytime he saw her in profile, it must have been a constant reminder of "What will the community think?" "What will my brothers think?" The Christmas break would ensure that all would be home, and perhaps knowing that his family were coming later in the day would allow for them to find the bodies, so they wouldn't be laying there for days. Do we know if their Christmas breaks were the two week long sessions like we have today, or maybe only 2-3 days?
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Maroaret Weis
jackhammer
02/16/07 at 10:09 AM
ginap
I have read a lot of post and heard stories from older people that are still in the area that were alive then that maybe Charlie did not do it or even do it alone. Who else would have done it? Possible Marie was pregnant by a family member but not Charlie and he knew who it was and they were all killed to spare any further embarrassment to them all. It may have been an unfortunate thing Aurthur was left alive or he took to the grave the real identity of
(Editors note: There is at least one line missing here.)
tormented that he had to either tell or hide the truth to protect his brothers and sisters as well as Arthur. Has anyone thought how convient it was that Arthur was allowed to go hunting if Charlie had planned this. It would seem he would have insisted that Arthur stay so he could kill them all. Maybe Charlie did not kill them but could not save them and that is why he killed himself. Anyone have any ideas. In the last book I read he did at one point almost confide in Fannie what was troubleing him but changed his mind. Maybe he was trying to protect her or thougt he could handel whatever was going and she would never need to know. They were very quick to say Charlie did do it with out any investigaion. In those days there was alot of crimes covered up to protect people. Just a theory and was wandering if anyone else thought about it.
ginap
02/16/07 at 10:22 AM
sissy
I'm back from the store, so I thought i would post. I really enjoy reading all of these theories. I agree that I don't think that Charlie planned to kill the family on Christmas Day but during the holiday break. If they had been killed while school was in session, the teachers or bus driver would have wondered why they weren't in school. They may have been found before he could finish them off.
sissy
02/16/07 at 10:28 AM
jackhammer
Glad to see you back. Just in time.
Also, the holidays have a tendency to add extra pressures to all of us. Quite possibly another stressor. Having the kids home 24 hours a day might have been additional pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sissy
I'm back from the store, so I thought i would post. I really enjoy reading all of these theories. I agree
that I don't think that Charlie planned to kill the family on Christmas Day but during the holiday break. If they had been killed while school was in session, the teachers or bus driver would have wondered why they weren't in school. They may have been found before he could finish them off.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret weis
jackhammer
jackhammer
Comments moved from another (Family portrait) thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sissy
Do you think that when Charlie took his whole family to have there picture made he was planning to kill them? Or was the picture a Christmas present for Fannie?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassygirl24
No one in the family knew they were going to be kill my their own father and husband.
Sassygirl24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
You're right Sassygirl, I'm sure Fannie nor the children knew they were going to be killed by Charlie. But I believe the question asked by Sissy was: Do we believe Charlie knew he was going to kill them. Did he already have such a plan in his mind at that time. No one can know with absolute certainty what's in another person's mind or heart at any given time, but a person's actions prior to an incident can be a strong indicator of what he was thinking and planning. Especially when those actions before hand are un-characteristic of that person as I've been told it was of Charlie Lawson. Maria
I think that there are indicators that back-up each theory. If we put them down in two lists, perhaps the circumstantial evidence is heavier on one side.
Showing pre-meditation
Buying the family new clothes
Having a large some of money (for the time) in his pocket
Sending Arthur off to the store
The portrait itself (sissy)
Pacing, wringing hands, "Oh, God...what am I going to do?" (see Maria's post below)
Making sure that his guns were in good repair
Timing the deaths to coincide with the Christmas school holiday to ensure all the children would be home.
Showing NO pre-meditation
Unfinished "suicide" note
Not killing his oldest son (although this could go in either column)
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons.
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 10:46 AM
Maria
Hi Jackhammer,
What a great idea of the for and against opinions of whether people believe Charlie planned the murders or not Another thing to add to the premeditated column is that I've heard from several people that three weeks before the murders Charlie Lawson was said to have had an episode several times where he was seen and heard pacing, wringing his hands, and crying "oh God what am I going to do...what am I going to do?" When a person acts like that (in this case Charlie Lawson) it tells me that something really bad has happened in their life and the question "what am I going to do" means he was searching for a way to deal with what ever it was that was disturbing him so much. He had to devise a plan to solve his problem and that plan, in my opinion, ended up being murder and suicide.
02/11/07 at 10:50 AM
sissy
The portrait itself could be a sign of premeditation. The picture seemed to say this is my family and I can do what I want to with them.
sissy
02/11/07 at 11:01 AM
jackhammer
As new ideas or indicators come up, I'll just add them to the initial post here.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 11:06 AM
Maria
Everytime I look at that photo I am struck by the "smug" expression on Charlie's face. (At least I percieve it as smug) I have a strong feeling that he's thinking...humph, I know something no one else does. I am "the superior one in this family". And soon I will show everyone that it is I who has the upper hand. I am the man in this family who makes the ultimate decisions regarding my family and I will go down in history as being so. And soon enough you will know that this is true and never will anyone be able to forget my name and who I was. I will show every last one of you.
Maria
02/11/07 at 11:25 AM
jackhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
Everytime I look at that photo I am struck by the "smug" expression on Charlie's face. (At least I perdeve it as smug) I have a strong feeling that he's thinking...humph, I know something no one else does. I am "the superior one in this family". And soon I will show everyone that it is I who has the upper hand. I am the man in this family who makes the ultimate decisions regarding my family and I will go down in history as being so. And soon enough you will know that this is true and never will anyone be able to forget my name and who I was. I will show every last one of you.
Seeing that I've never seen any other picture of Charlie, other than the family portrait, I can't compare how he might look different or smug on the family one. I blew it up a little and lightened it up some to get a better look. He does have that raised eyebrow look to him.
Picture link here
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 11:34 AM
Maria
In addition to the raised eyebrow, the tilt of his head made him look smug to me.
Maria
02/11/07 at 11:37 AM
jackhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria
In addition to the raised eyebrow, the tilt of his head made him look smug to me.
Maria
Yeah, I see what you're saying, Maria. Also, on this lightened version of the picture, it looks almost like Charlie has a moustache. It may just be shadows, but it gives the appearance of a moustache.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 11:58AM
jackhammer
I think that making sure that his guns were in good repair (almost obsessive about it) prior to the murders was indicative of pre-meditation as well.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 12:51 PM
tarheel
jackhammer...
your feelings about Charlie and keeping his gun in good condition does not have anything to do with premeditation!
if you were a farmer back then, you kept your guns is good condition for many reasons!
for protection or for use in hunting meat for the winter!
after all ,this was 1929 and the depression had hit most families very hard!
having a good working firearm may have been the difference of being able to feed your family during the winter or all of them going hungry!
and i'm sure they were a proud family too and taking "handouts" was not part of their lifestyle!
also.many folks who own guns today really do not worry that much about their condition all the time because they are able to store them in dosets.or rooms in a house where the temperature does not change that drastic from day to day and therefore worryiong about moisture damging a firearm does not even come into play in our high tech society today!
these are just my thoughts because i remember my grandfather and my dad always cleaned their guns after hunting and would on several occasion mention the change of weather conditions that might cause moisture to build up and ruin the barrels of a rifle or shotgun!
tarheel
02/11/07 at 12:56 PM
Maria
I doubt if most people back then jumped up in the middle of the night to check on their guns. It was only in the last three weeks prior to the murders that his preoccupation with his guns was an aboration from his usual behavior regarding his guns as a number of people reported. That's why I think it points to something more.
Maria
02/11/07 at 01:01PM
jackhammer
Of course you are quite right about the guns, tarheel. Back in those days, you had to take proper care of all of your tools and keep them in the best shape that you could. There was no driving down to WalMart or Home Depot to get new ones like we might do today.
I was thinking more about something I read, either here or in the book "the Meaning of Our Tears". But it seemed like Charlie was getting up in the middle of the night to check on his guns, etc. Not a normal thing to do, in my opinion. Maybe I'm mis-remembering this.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret Weis
jackhammer
02/11/07 at 01:04 PM
Maria
No Jackhammer, you are not mis-remembering. Gotta love the new word. I was told by a number of different people, mostly family members, about his sudden obsession with his guns. And I too read about that in the book. It was this sudden and "OBSESSIVE" part of it that raised a red flag for me.
Maria
02/11/07 at 08:05 PM
sissy
In my opinion his obsession with his gun was a sign of premeditation. My grandfather was a farmer back then and he was not obsessed with his guns. They did have to kill a lot of what they ate. But I just don't think anybody in their right mind is gonna jump up in the middle of the night to check on his guns. But again this is only my opinion.
sissy
02/11/07 at 08:41PM
tarheel
well...i thought that we were here to express opinions and what we thought may have happened...
dang.if you gonna jump down someones throat just because their opinion differs from yours, then this is not a forum...it's a declaration of what really happened and not anyone of you are well informed enough to make that a fact!!!
and...besides that i have much better things to tune in here every 15 minutes to see what THEY have to say about my recent POST!
SO...FYI, this is my last post in here
warm regards,
tarheel
02/12/07 at 01:15 PM
ecalhoun
Just a quick note against premeditation which has always bothered me:
Charlie, and the rest of the family, were expecting people to come over and visit, including Fannie's parents, who were supposed to be there on that day, but had to turn around because of the snow. Also, his brother was expecting him to go hunting with him later. Maybe it was premeditated, but it seems like a pretty bad plan to pick one of the most busy days of the year for visiting, and it was fate that gave him the opportunity.
Break of Dawn Productions
"Bringing Light to the Darkest Night"
ecalhoun
02/12/07 at 02:31 PM
Maria
Premeditated doesn't mean on a particular day, in this case, Christmas Day. I just believe he already had his decision planned firmly in his mind to kill everyone. The bad weather and then Arthur leaving the house that day provided an opportunity for him to do it that day. The perfect opportunity presented itself and Charlie used it to carry out his plans. Mind you, this is what I "think" happened.
Maria
02/16/07 at 08:43 AM
Maria
I've been thinking some more about why the family was killed on Christmas Day. For me this is another factor that fits in with it being premeditated because I think that he chose the Christmas Holidays (though not necessarily the exact day of Christmas) to do this because school was always out of session over the Christmas Holidays, usually for a week. During the times that school was in session some of the children (at least Marie, Carrie, and Maybell) left home early in the morning for school and didn't get home until late afternoon. Of course all of this is possible only if Charlie Lawson did indeed commit these murders and since no absolute hold-up-in-a- court-of-law proof exists then this is conjecture. My opinions are based on an "if he did it" basis. If what I've been told by at least 5 different family members is true (and I have no reason to believe they lied) that Charlie found out only 2 to 3 weeks before he killed his family that Marie had told her mother that she was pregnant by him then that explains the time frame for me. If Marie was indeed pregnant at that time it would not have been much longer until she started showing "enough" for there to be no doubt she was pregnant and therefore he needed to do something about it in the very near future. If his solution for the problem was carried out before her pregnancy could no longer be in doubt then no one could ever prove beyond a doubt that she was indeed pregnant, it would always remain heresay. And with no proof possible the truth would be buried forever.
Maria
02/16/07 at 09:46 AM
jackhammer
I think that your scenario is spot on, Maria. I can't imagine the pressure that he may have been under IF she was pregnant. And every day, the clock was ticking (no pun intended). Everytime he saw her in profile, it must have been a constant reminder of "What will the community think?" "What will my brothers think?" The Christmas break would ensure that all would be home, and perhaps knowing that his family were coming later in the day would allow for them to find the bodies, so they wouldn't be laying there for days. Do we know if their Christmas breaks were the two week long sessions like we have today, or maybe only 2-3 days?
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Maroaret Weis
jackhammer
02/16/07 at 10:09 AM
ginap
I have read a lot of post and heard stories from older people that are still in the area that were alive then that maybe Charlie did not do it or even do it alone. Who else would have done it? Possible Marie was pregnant by a family member but not Charlie and he knew who it was and they were all killed to spare any further embarrassment to them all. It may have been an unfortunate thing Aurthur was left alive or he took to the grave the real identity of
(Editors note: There is at least one line missing here.)
tormented that he had to either tell or hide the truth to protect his brothers and sisters as well as Arthur. Has anyone thought how convient it was that Arthur was allowed to go hunting if Charlie had planned this. It would seem he would have insisted that Arthur stay so he could kill them all. Maybe Charlie did not kill them but could not save them and that is why he killed himself. Anyone have any ideas. In the last book I read he did at one point almost confide in Fannie what was troubleing him but changed his mind. Maybe he was trying to protect her or thougt he could handel whatever was going and she would never need to know. They were very quick to say Charlie did do it with out any investigaion. In those days there was alot of crimes covered up to protect people. Just a theory and was wandering if anyone else thought about it.
ginap
02/16/07 at 10:22 AM
sissy
I'm back from the store, so I thought i would post. I really enjoy reading all of these theories. I agree that I don't think that Charlie planned to kill the family on Christmas Day but during the holiday break. If they had been killed while school was in session, the teachers or bus driver would have wondered why they weren't in school. They may have been found before he could finish them off.
sissy
02/16/07 at 10:28 AM
jackhammer
Glad to see you back. Just in time.
Also, the holidays have a tendency to add extra pressures to all of us. Quite possibly another stressor. Having the kids home 24 hours a day might have been additional pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sissy
I'm back from the store, so I thought i would post. I really enjoy reading all of these theories. I agree
that I don't think that Charlie planned to kill the family on Christmas Day but during the holiday break. If they had been killed while school was in session, the teachers or bus driver would have wondered why they weren't in school. They may have been found before he could finish them off.
Much of the evil in the world is brought about by people believing they are acting for good and righteous reasons. -
Margaret weis
jackhammer